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Biden vs Girls Sports (1 Viewer)

Toby2ElectricBugaloo said:
Hey man, sorry I missed this earlier. my bad.

No, that's not remotely close to anything I said. You can certainly discuss anything you want. Not sure where you got the impression otherwise, to be honest. But the flip side of that is that other people are also free to say anything they want in response, for example wondering why you and other people are suddenly acutely interested in the outcome of the NCAA Division 1 women's 500 freestyle finals after completely ignoring it for decade.  Or asking what other things people who claim to be "defending women's sports" have done to support women's athletics outside of getting mad about stuff on the internet. 
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They're all about women support, unless they are parading around in pink hats.

 
Toby2ElectricBugaloo said:
It's weird that we have a 64 page thread about supporting women's sports on this forum, but AFAIK there's no threads about the WNBA, the NWSL or the women's NCAA tournament that just ended. Were the threads deleted or something?
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Happy to talk about the fantastic season the Gamecocks just completed. Dawn Staley is really a great coach.

rustycolts said:
Jeez guys it's an old saying. Yes I know you can still do the nasty. 
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Just joking around GB. It's something my grandmother would say (but she got knocked up at like 15 so....)

 
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You guys aren't gonna believe this- I just searched the forum for "WNBA" and all the posts were in the politics forum? 

You all want me to start a  WNBA thread? I have to admit I'm not that excited for the upcoming Mystics season. I think Delle Donne is too old and banged up at this point, and the supporting cast isn't where it needs to be. Maybe someone who is more excited about their team's chances should get the ball rolling?

 
Desert_Power said:
Happy to talk about the fantastic season the Gamecocks just completed. Dawn Staley is really a great coach.
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It was nice to see someone take down UConn in a final. But I'm the wrong man for discussion as I spent last night re-watching UNC beat Duke multiple times. Plus the Mystics have the top pick but Bueckers and Boston aren't eligible yet under WNBA rules, which is kinda annoying.

 
Toby2ElectricBugaloo said:
It was nice to see someone take down UConn in a final. But I'm the wrong man for discussion as I spent last night re-watching UNC beat Duke multiple times. Plus the Mystics have the top pick but Bueckers and Boston aren't eligible yet under WNBA rules, which is kinda annoying.
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That one play, spin into jump shot by Buecker was sweet !  And Destanni for SC was on fire the whole game--

 
Desert_Power said:
Happy to talk about the fantastic season the Gamecocks just completed. Dawn Staley is really a great coach.

Just joking around GB. It's something my grandmother would say (but she got knocked up at like 15 so....)
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It's cause you need to squeeze the quarter vertically, not horizontally.  

 
Toby2ElectricBugaloo said:
It's weird that we have a 64 page thread about supporting women's sports on this forum, but AFAIK there's no threads about the WNBA, the NWSL or the women's NCAA tournament that just ended. Were the threads deleted or something?
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I also support someone’s right to be gay, but I didn’t think that meant I need to want to watch it or think it’s entertaining.

 
djmich said:
I also support someone’s right to be gay, but I didn’t think that meant I need to want to watch it or think it’s entertaining.
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Is someone suggesting that women don't have the right to play sports?  Because if not, the analogy kinda falls apart. Supporting the right to do something is not the same as supporting the thing itself. 

 
John123 said:
This one is interesting.  Summary:  Trans woman archer is stripped of state title due to protests from other archers.  Believes she should be allowed to participate but also believes Lia Thomas should not have been allowed to participate in swimming competitions.

https://www.kxan.com/news/texas/transgender-archery-champion-banned-from-texas-womens-competitions/
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This is a good one for my theory that we shouldn't talk about "transgenders in sports" because sports place such wildly different demands on the body that it's not even really the same conversation.

I'm no archery expert and would certainly defer to anyone who is, but it seems to me that there's no real reason to divide archery by gender at all. Pretty much on the opposite end of the spectrum from something like swimming.

 
Toby2ElectricBugaloo said:
This is a good one for my theory that we shouldn't talk about "transgenders in sports" because sports place such wildly different demands on the body that it's not even really the same conversation.

I'm no archery expert and would certainly defer to anyone who is, but it seems to me that there's no real reason to divide archery by gender at all. Pretty much on the opposite end of the spectrum from something like swimming.
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Did you read the article and how the appeals committee came to their conclusion and decision to strip the archer of her title?

 
John123 said:
Did you read the article and how the appeals committee came to their conclusion and decision to strip the archer of her title?
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Yeah, I did. Hard to tell why the men score higher, though. It may just be because a lot more men participate, so a larger pool = better elite athletes. 

If it's physical traits, then sure, go ahead and separate. My position is that the people who best understand the sport should make the rules based on their understanding of how physiology affects their sport.  If that's what they were doing, I'm on  board. Not sure just comparing the records does the trick, hopefully they put more into the actual decision.

ETA: I had stopped reading at a page break and missed the NFAA discussion in the article. That sort of detailed physiological analysis sounds great to me, I totally defer to their judgment. Not sure why they differ from the state-level folks, but whatever.  

Anyway, interesting article. Thanks for sharing

 
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John123 said:
This one is interesting.  Summary:  Trans woman archer is stripped of state title due to protests from other archers.  Believes she should be allowed to participate but also believes Lia Thomas should not have been allowed to participate in swimming competitions.

https://www.kxan.com/news/texas/transgender-archery-champion-banned-from-texas-womens-competitions/
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I agree with this, obviously.  Hopefully we start seeing more of this sound logic and reason w/regards to Women's sports and competition.

 
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fatguyinalittlecoat said:
It doesn’t seem like there are enough trans athletes around to have their own divisions. Especially at the high school level. Maybe someday in the future but right now that doesn’t feel like a realistic suggestion.
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I don't disagree.  Where we probably do disagree is that I don't think biological women should have to suffer due to the lack of trans women for trans women to compete against. 

 
John123 said:
I don't disagree.  Where we probably do disagree is that I don't think biological women should have to suffer due to the lack of trans women for trans women to compete against. 
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Right, we know where we stand on that.  I just think it’s a cop out for the WSCA to say that the answer is to have trans divisions.  

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
Right, we know where we stand on that.  I just think it’s a cop out for the WSCA to say that the answer is to have trans divisions.  
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While it may not be a realistic solution now, I don't think they were looking for a cop out.  I think they're looking for solutions and, as we've seen in this thread, this is a very complicated issue without any easy solutions at this point in time.  I think we can all agree that the holy grail would be enough trans athletes to make it a satisfying competitive experience for trans athletes such that they wouldn't feel like they're missing out on anything by not being able to participate with their chosen gender.  I think that's why the coaches detailed the evolution of the special olympics. 

 
John123 said:
While it may not be a realistic solution now, I don't think they were looking for a cop out.  I think they're looking for solutions and, as we've seen in this thread, this is a very complicated issue without any easy solutions at this point in time.  I think we can all agree that the holy grail would be enough trans athletes to make it a satisfying competitive experience for trans athletes such that they wouldn't feel like they're missing out on anything by not being able to participate with their chosen gender.  I think that's why the coaches detailed the evolution of the special olympics. 
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By what year would you think it would be realistic to have a special division for trans high school swimmers?

 
Is having a separate division for trans athletes much different from having them compete in the male (i.e. non-female) division? I thought part of the point was not to constantly call attention to the athletes' status as trans.

I'm not saying I know of a better solution. I'm just saying that a separate trans division doesn't seem great even if there were enough competitors to fill it.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
Is having a separate division for trans athletes much different from having them compete in the male (i.e. non-female) division? I thought part of the point was not to constantly call attention to the athletes' status as trans.

I'm not saying I know of a better solution. I'm just saying that a separate trans division doesn't seem great even if there were enough competitors to fill it.
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Agreed -- it would be worse if they didn't let them compete mixed in with the cis groups -- there's so few, trans,  if there were separate heats say swimming/ running they'd be on their own mostly-- not really a "competition" 

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
Is having a separate division for trans athletes much different from having them compete in the male (i.e. non-female) division? I thought part of the point was not to constantly call attention to the athletes' status as trans.

I'm not saying I know of a better solution. I'm just saying that a separate trans division doesn't seem great even if there were enough competitors to fill it.
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When being trans was fringe maybe this stance would be ok, just like 25 years ago when most gay people were still in the closet.  But in today's inclusive society why would a trans person NOT want that to be part of their story?  It sure seems, what with the LGBTQ parades and protests and what not, that the trans/gay community is all out at this point. 

But beyond that, I think your point on why they want to compete with the cis gender of their choice is incorrect as well.  The reasoning we've been told is that trans women want to do everything a woman can do, not that they don't want anyone knowing they're trans.  Lia Thomas certainly didn't hide the fact that she was trans, and every time she competed against another trans woman they partied like it's 1999 to let everyone else know they were trans. 

 
John123 said:
When being trans was fringe maybe this stance would be ok, just like 25 years ago when most gay people were still in the closet.  But in today's inclusive society why would a trans person NOT want that to be part of their story?  It sure seems, what with the LGBTQ parades and protests and what not, that the trans/gay community is all out at this point. 

But beyond that, I think your point on why they want to compete with the cis gender of their choice is incorrect as well.  The reasoning we've been told is that trans women want to do everything a woman can do, not that they don't want anyone knowing they're trans.  Lia Thomas certainly didn't hide the fact that she was trans, and every time she competed against another trans woman they partied like it's 1999 to let everyone else know they were trans. 
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I think it’s pretty hard to argue there’s no stigma if you read through this thread and the other PSF trans threads.  Sure it’s way better to be trans now than it was 20 years ago.  But there are plenty of reasons why trans people might want to remain in the closet at least in certain situations.

 
John123 said:
While it may not be a realistic solution now, I don't think they were looking for a cop out.  I think they're looking for solutions and, as we've seen in this thread, this is a very complicated issue without any easy solutions at this point in time.  I think we can all agree that the holy grail would be enough trans athletes to make it a satisfying competitive experience for trans athletes such that they wouldn't feel like they're missing out on anything by not being able to participate with their chosen gender.  I think that's why the coaches detailed the evolution of the special olympics. 
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Even in a "Trans Athlete Division", those Trans born biological male would still dominate.  But, at least the unfairness is isolated to that division.

 
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John123 said:
Here's an impressive feat, winning the same championship as a MAN one year AND a WOMAN another year:

https://www.outkick.com/biological-male-dominates-womens-field-in-australian-surf-competition/
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quick-hands said:
https://www.breitbart.com/sports/2022/05/20/biological-male-absolutely-demolishes-female-surfing-competitors-australia/

This gal just added 10 years to her career
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I blame women, specifically feminists and liberal women, for the predicament they are in with this loony BS.

You couldn't have asked for better karma.  :lol:

The old saying, "Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it" seems apt.

 
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BladeRunner said:
I blame women, specifically feminists and liberal women, for the predicament they are in with this loony BS.

You couldn't have asked for better karma.  :lol:

The old saying, "Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it" seems apt.
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It was comical seeing Liberal women in CT get twisted in knots watching the transgender track runners destroying their daughters.  I worked with a Liberal woman who at first was very supportive of the transgenders - that is, until her 35 year old meet record got shattered.  Her tune changed after that. 😆

 
Doctors confirm trans swimmer Lia Thomas DOES have an unfair advantage even after taking testosterone suppressants

Mayo Clinic doctor Michael Joyner said testosterone is the '800lb gorilla' which gives biological men an advantage 

Physiologist Ross Tucker says Thomas still has an advantage despite taking hormone suppressant therapy

The NCAA allowed Lia to compete this year as a woman but it's unclear what they will do when the next season begins in September 

Lia, who swam as a male and wants to keep swimming as a female, has divided the sport 

Other pro tennis players including trans player Renee Richards and Martina Navratilova say it is unfair 

Mayo Clinic doctor confirms trans swimmer Lia Thomas IS given an unfair advantage | Daily Mail Online

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
Sabine Hossenfelder is a genius physicist with a YouTube channel where she sometimes explains scientific stuff to lay people. This is a bit outside her normal domain, but I think it's a good overview of why there's no simple solution: Trans athletes in women's sports: Is this fair?
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I just skimmed this very briefly because I can't sit through a 16 minute video knowing that I could read the transcript in two.  But these arguments always seem to be trying too hard to make a simple issue more complicated than it is.  Yes, tall people have an advantage over short people, and yes, we could create a bunch of different divisions the way we do for boxing.  But segregating men from women is a pretty good "good enough" way of ensuring a modestly level playing field.  When people pretend not to get that, it's hard not to write them off as arguing in bad faith, or just not having thought about the issue much.

 
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