Is There A Widespread Growing Mental Health Crisis For Both Adult Men And Teenage Boys? (27/30) (1 Viewer)

[GordonGekko]

VIDEO: Why Big Boys Don't Cry Gareth Griffith TEDxUniversityofBristol TEDx Talks Aug 15, 2018

Gareth Griffith is committed to creating a space for us all to talk about mental health. He believes that we all benefit from increasing the everyday possibilities to articulate those feelings that are far too often left internalised. Don’t miss this incredibly personal talk in which Gareth shares his story of his battle with depression during his time as an undergraduate student, how he found the space to talk, and how he recovered from this low point through helping others to find that space too.

In high-income nations, men commit suicide at a rate three times higher than women... ( World Health Organization (WHO) report)

According to data...., "Men die by suicide 3.56 [times] more often than women" in the United States.

Furthermore, according to data .... 3 million men in the United States and over 6 million men in the country experience anxiety issues each year. Despite these startling numbers, males are less likely than women to have gotten official mental health support .... according to the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH).

Men of color and men from various racial and cultural backgrounds have particular difficulties while trying to maintain their mental health.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLWEr_kdXl4



VIDEO: Single Young Male Crisis IGNORED By Media | Breaking Points Feb 27 2023

Saagar breaks down troubling new data on the ongoing crisis of young single men in the US.

"It is better to be alone than to be involved in a society that makes you feel alone."

"It's all fun and games until society hits a demographic collapse and is forced to confront the issue."

"Young men without prospects and unmet expectations is a scary thing in any society."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_x_0ow3u8Q



Direct Headline: Are We Facing a Mental Health Crisis for Boys?

By Laura McKenna March 11, 2021

.....“I feel pretty lonely and sometimes depressed... because I don’t have no one to go out with, no one to speak on the phone, no one to tell my secrets,” confided one high school boy ..... “I tried to look for a person, you know, but it’s not that easy.”....America’s teens now seem to be struggling more than ever—especially boys. One study found that the rates of depression increased by 52 percent in teens between 2005 and 2017, and in 2019, 70 percent of teens reported anxiety and depression as major problems. For boys in particular, there has been an alarming rise in suicides among older teens (15 and older) since 2000, and they die by suicide at three to four times the rate of girls.....

.... From an early age, boys are encouraged to bury their feelings and present a tough exterior. Experts say these social dynamics have long-term implications for their mental health....According to experts, boys can struggle more than girls because they have fewer tools to cope with emotions and stressors, and they are less likely to get the help they need. Without the means to effectively process emotions, boys are more prone to lash out in unhealthy ways or alienate themselves.....have trouble talking about emotions and feelings because social norms have encouraged them to conform to a masculine ideal that emphasizes values like stoicism, toughness, and competitiveness....A 2020 survey of more than 1,500 youth ages 13 to 19, for example, found that 81 percent of them reported mental health as a significant issue and 79 percent wished their school talked more about it......

....Data shows that boys are nearly twice as likely to get into physical fights as girls, for example...Because boys tend to lack emotional vocabulary—or they don’t feel free to express their feelings—their behavior becomes their communication.....“When a boy is acting out or is disrespectful, instead of personalizing it, we have to target their behaviors and not assault their character....”

https://www.edutopia.org/article/are-we-facing-mental-health-crisis-boys/



Direct Headline: I treat teens who attempted suicide. Here’s what they told me.

By Stephanie Doupnik Nov 6, 2019

.....Suicide is the second-leading cause of death (after motor vehicle crashes) in adolescents and young adults, according to Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data, and suicide deaths have been rising for nearly two decades, with an especially concerning spike since 2010. Children’s hospital visits for suicidal thoughts and suicide attempts have doubled since 2008.....Most have a mental health condition that is treatable with medication and therapy. Teens described how, when their condition wasn’t fully treated, they had intrusive, depressed, or racing, thoughts. Many said they had suicidal thoughts around the difficulty of coping with social pressures, whether from peers, teachers, or other people in their lives. Other teens told us about going through a breakup, experiencing bullying, or having a fight with a family member. For others, the triggers were the illness or loss of a loved one, or far worse, an event in which they were the victim of or a witness to violence.....

....People often ask me how social media and the internet contribute to teenagers’ risk of suicide. The teens we spoke with rarely discussed them alone as a trigger for their suicidal thoughts. However, for already vulnerable adolescents, technology can provide a forum for more trauma, worsening conflict or isolation. Further, having easy access to information on the internet about how to engage in self-harm can be dangerous for teens with mental health concerns...Sometimes, people who aren’t familiar with caring for teenagers at risk of suicide worry that there is nothing they can do to help if a teen is determined to die. Resoundingly, teenagers expressed just the opposite. They wanted help so that they could stop feeling like they wanted to die.....

That said, teens also shared some difficult memories and fears about what would come next for them. Many adolescents told us that they had feelings of guilt, remorse, or embarrassment about their suicidal crisis. Others worried about the next steps in their treatment. Most of them would require an inpatient mental health hospitalization once they were stabilized in the emergency room, and they worried about the transition to a new healthcare team.....They also worried about what would face them when they returned home. The structure of the hospital was a respite from their thoughts, and they worried that reimmersion in their daily life would bring their worries and triggers right back. This very real concern highlights how important it is for teens to have a supportive community around them as they recover from a mental health crisis....

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/10/30/20936636/suicide-mental-health-suicidal-thoughts-teens



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"To say that you don't get to feel bad cause someone else has it worse, is the identical logic to saying that you don't get to feel good cause someone else has it better." - Gareth Griffith


“The heart of man is very much like the sea; it has its storms, it has its tides, and in its depths, it has its pearls too.” – Vincent Van Gogh


“A man may conquer a million men in battle, but one who conquers himself is, indeed, the greatest of conquerors.” – Buddha




Here is another topic that is designed to increase discussion and participation in the FFA.

I believe this topic has mostly limited pathways of delving into real world public policy issues, public administration conflict and generally anything politically related.

Is There A Widespread Growing Mental Health Crisis For Both Adult Men And Teenage Boys?

Have you struggled with your mental health in your life? Have your sons and/or nephews and/or other young men in your consistent social/career sphere? What are the pressures in your life that create the stressors that harm your mental health situation? What are your outlets to help manage your stress and mental health situation? What do you see going on around you regarding mental health and young men in general? Have you known any men and/or teenage boys who committed suicide?

What can be done to help adult men and young teenage boys in this regard?

What will happen to the future of our society (i.e. the overall world your children will have to live in) if this crisis is not effectively addressed?


I'll leave this here for others to discuss. (27/30)

 

[GordonGekko]

I want to take a moment to invite @BobbyLayne into the thread if he'd like to participate and share.

He's talked in the past, and in the open, about his struggles with mental health. He is also the only other regular poster who has openly discussed their previous struggles with homelessness, besides myself.

I appreciate that Bobby shares his experiences, so that others can better understand the struggles that people, especially men, go through. He's a value add to this community and welcome him here if he'd like to share his thoughts further.

 

[rockaction]

Yes, there clearly is. Why it is that way is something many, many people do not want to hear about, and if they do hear why it is possible why it might be that way, they get immediately reflexively hostile.

There has been a growing crisis among boys since the nineties. It's beginning to show up now in achievement and engagement. There were people (like me) that talked about this at length back then, but we were pilloried as anti-feminists and rewarded with copies of Reviving Ophelia as proof that one sex had it harder than the other growing up. Our focus was wrongly placed, they argued, and that's still how the argument goes. We lose two girls in STEM to natural weeding out processes and it's considered a failure; a whole population of men dropped out and people shrug. It's insane.

It's not part of a grievance theory. It's not an adjunct to men's rights guys, either. It's happening en masse and in major numbers.

It's a shame nobody listened to us, because we are just starting to deal with the ramifications of devaluation and disengagement by the youngest and most able-bodied among us. Most young boys can't hold a pencil for the test the right way, never mind test like an aspirant member of society.

 

[TripItUp]

The most recent Bill Maher episode discussed this. Didn't realize it was this serious of an issue, but starting to get traction as something that matters.

 

[rockaction]

The most recent Bill Maher episode discussed this

It did? I wonder who was on and what they said. I'll have to check it out.

Didn't realize it was this serious of an issue, but starting to get traction as something that matters.

Other Western countries who had seen progress march through their institutions also have been cognizant of this since the nineties and had even created blue-ribbon panels and the like to address the issue. Even those that had experienced such "progress" had at least identified the problem. We were all set to learn from it, but the second wave of feminism hit the scholastics and the boys went to the back of the bus again in America. And here we are.

 

[fatness]

There were people (like me) that talked about this at length back then, but we were pilloried as anti-feminists and rewarded with copies of Reviving Ophelia as proof that one sex had it harder than the other growing up. Our focus was wrongly placed, they argued, and that's still how the argument goes. We lose two girls in STEM to natural weeding out processes and it's considered a failure; a whole population of men dropped out and people shrug. It's insane.

It's not part of a grievance theory. It's not an adjunct to men's rights guys, either.

We were all set to learn from it, but the second wave of feminism hit the scholastics and the boys went to the back of the bus again in America. And here we are.

This sounds like aggrieved male baloney and PSF material to me.

 

[rockaction]

This sounds like aggrieved male baloney and PSF material to me.

This is the exact type of attitude that led us to this crisis.

 

[bigbottom]

Yes, there clearly is. Why it is that way is something many, many people do not want to hear about, and if they do hear why it is possible why it might be that way, they get immediately reflexively hostile.

Okay, let’s hear your thoughts on the topic. GG has spoken on male suffering in the past, and it’s a very interesting topic to me. You often hear posters talk about how FBGs has helped them through many of life’s difficult challenges and how that has built such a sense of community here. Well, I think in many ways, FBGs has been a support group for (mostly) men. A place where men can discuss the problems, fears, challenges, and demons in their lives with an empathetic audience and relatively little judgment. Issues that men oftentimes have difficulty speaking about IRL. And I do tend to somewhat agree with the premise that GG has raised before and which you seem to be echoing - that society tends not to care about male suffering. Or at least there are many who prefer not to acknowledge or confront it. I think things have been changing. Are changing. At least I hope so. I believe this topic is worthy of a constructive discussion. Let’s have one.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I am one in five.

According to the CDC, mental illnesses are one of the most common health conditions in the United States.

• More than 50% will be diagnosed with a mental illness or disorder at some point in their lifetime.
• 1 in 5 Americans will experience a mental illness in a given year.

(actually John Hopkins puts the number at one in four; their research estimates 26% of Americans ages 18 and older suffers from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year.)

Based on that data, virtually everyone here could probably speak with authority on mental health from direct or indirect experience.

We have a depression thread kicking around here somewhere...

Since we're recommending books, my wife, sisters and several friends tell me Darkness Visible, a short memoir by novelist William Styron, was quite helpful. Every person is unique and your experience dealing with someone who has mental illness will differ somewhat, but it tracks. It can be a mfer.

***************

WRT homelessness, complex problems often have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers.

My personal mantra is to be faithful to what is in my hand. I cannot change the world or solve this particular immense problem. I can impact others lives. Generally one at a time, always with intentionality. Think of it this way: you can't speak into someone's life unless they have given you express permission, & even then they're unlikely to listen. What I find works best is to treat friends without homes with respect, dignity and gentle loving kindness. Let them tell you what they need and figure out how you can help them. Sometimes the best you can offer is an ear. They has incredible intrinsic value, to see and hear someone who is seldom seen or heard whilst being passed by thousands.

If I have anything to offer on this topic in the way of solutions, I would suggest googling Rapid Rehousing. It's seldom an employment issue. Lots of folks without homes have jobs. Statistically, there are usually multiple factors and there are layers as to how someone came to be in that circumstance. Addictions and mental illness might be among those. IME trauma often plays a big role. Childhood trauma and combat are somewhat common triggers. Exhaustion is big part of any homeless persons life as you seldom get proper rest, and it's difficult to relax if you are not self-medicating.

I lived for a year in temporary housing (a were very nicely constructed multi-purpose apartment building in Brooklyn) with other vets who met certain conditions. Gosh it's been awhile but I want to say 2 of 5 from these: 1) diagnosed with combat PTSD, 2) addict/alcoholic who has (or is) undergone treatment, 3) chronically homeless (that would be a diatribe describing the hilarious methods for determination, I'll spare you), 4) major/severe mental disorder other than PTSD, 5) I don't remember. Anyway, it's part of a rapid rehousing program started under Obama and at least here in NYC it has dramatically reduced the number of homeless veterans. On the order of there used to thousands of known homeless vets in the system and after 8-10 years that had been reduced to less than 200. Not as confident citing nationwide data but AFAIK it's been effective.

So that's pretty specific. But my reading is that in general, rapid rehousing has been the most effective solution. Like get people housed, then worry about getting them rehab or social services or mental health treatment or whatever. Just allowing people some dignity and the ability to get proper rest has a fantastic impact on ameliorating the issue.

 

[sho nuff]

Is there a crisis...or has it always been there but people were reluctant to admit or say it...are we just more open about it now and more comfortable saying we have an issue and may need help?
As a whole, society is more excepting of mental health issues and more aware of them than ever before. Which is a very good thing...hopefully fewer and fewer are embarrassed by needing help. Part of the issue is recognizing you even have a problem.

 

[Caveman33]

This sounds like aggrieved male baloney and PSF material to me.

This is the exact type of attitude that led us to this crisis.

Yes, it's really easy for people to dismiss the idea that boys are disadvantaged in today's society. Last week at my school, we had a presentation from two local hiring managers. The class is 90% female and both hiring managers were females. They explained in detail why women are inherently better at the job. The double standards in today's society don't bother me too much (though I do enjoy pointing them out to those who refuse to acknowledge the existence). Many men are not struggling, which makes it easy for them to dismiss this topic. Seeing or experiencing is believing for most. Looking at the statistics, it's obvious that collectively, boys are struggling and the trend is worsening. I like it when people say this is because boys are inherently lazier with worse impulse control, etc. They are acknowledging that differences exist between groups, justifying many of the opinions and ideas that they abhor.

 

[rockaction]

Okay, let’s hear your thoughts on the topic.

I'm not ignoring this. Consider it a placeholder for the time being. I'd like to talk about it, but for fear of taking on too much and dissembling, I need to limit myself to certain aspects of it. I'll be running around all day, so I won't have a good idea until nightfall which aspect of the problem I'll write about.

 

[rockaction]

The more I read Richard Reeves's book Of Boys And Men: Why The Modern Male Is Struggling, Why It Matters, And What To Do About It, I'm struck that it is a compendium of information and sourcing. Instead of me wasting everybody's time (and mine) with meandering points and looking up sources for those points, I'm planning on reading the whole thing and reviewing it here --especially the chapters on the divergent educational gap between men and women. I'll give data from the book and summarize the educational portions of it.

The author is obviously a left-center guy (he's a fellow at the Brookings Institution, a left-center think tank) who has come to grips with the notion that men are having a tough time of it. He admits up front his solutions are coming from the center-left and that he abhors the culture war rhetoric that usually surrounds the topic. One might suspect he does this to limit the potential backlash from the book, especially from those on the left. It's a book that he admits people were telling him not to write. But if one is charitable, one might find him unvaryingly earnest in his assessments and data.

It strikes me as a thoughtful, well-researched book. It has stats compiled that aren't even in easy form, but needed to be compiled by Brookings's own staff. I think I shall buy it, read it, and give it a review here. Seems about right. That way we can deflect any personalized stuff and have it presented as data and fact rather than supposition and confirmation bias.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Yes, there clearly is. Why it is that way is something many, many people do not want to hear about, and if they do hear why it is possible why it might be that way, they get immediately reflexively hostile.

Okay, let’s hear your thoughts on the topic. GG has spoken on male suffering in the past, and it’s a very interesting topic to me. You often hear posters talk about how FBGs has helped them through many of life’s difficult challenges and how that has built such a sense of community here. Well, I think in many ways, FBGs has been a support group for (mostly) men. A place where men can discuss the problems, fears, challenges, and demons in their lives with an empathetic audience and relatively little judgment. Issues that men oftentimes have difficulty speaking about IRL. And I do tend to somewhat agree with the premise that GG has raised before and which you seem to be echoing - that society tends not to care about male suffering. Or at least there are many who prefer not to acknowledge or confront it. I think things have been changing. Are changing. At least I hope so. I believe this topic is worthy of a constructive discussion. Let’s have one.

I agree with rock that there is a problem here, but I don't think it's a problem with men of my generation or older. Gen X men seem to be just fine AFAICT. It's the younger ones who do not seem to be thriving. This is admittedly armchair theorizing on my part. I think we're at the idea-generation stage here because this is a problem that folks haven't been willing to address until fairly recently, so I think a little brainstorming is fine as long as we're willing to hold on to our hypotheses loosely.

My personal take is that we have spent the last few generations robbing children of the opportunity to develop self-efficacy. While that affects all kids, it especially affects boys and men. When I was a kid (say, 11 or so), I would get up on Saturday morning and tell my mom that I was riding my bike to my buddy's house a couple of miles away and I'd be back by supper. That was fine. She had no idea what we were up to all day, and she had no way to get in touch with us. If we ran into a problem, like a flat tire or twisted ankle, it was up to us to figure it out. Combine that with competitive sports (not me, but other kids) and real work (definitely me), and you produce kids who know that they can overcome obstacles and don't get freaked out by every little setback.

Obviously we don't do that anymore. Parents who just let their kids roam unattended all day are outliers at best and are likely to get protective services called on them at worst. With some notable exceptions e.g. travelling sports teams, we've deemphasized competition. And kids seldom do real work anymore. That seems very bad to me for boys in particular. For 300,000 years or so, men have been selected based on their ability to go out on their own or in teams to do things that are difficult and/or dangerous. I worry that what we're doing with young men is the equivalent of trying to raise a greyhound in a 1200 sq. ft. apartment. We weren't bred to live this kind of bubble-wrapped life.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

As just a bit of anecdata, I can tell you from first hand experience that it is nearly impossible to recruit male college students into doing much of anything besides going to class. Graders, tour guide leaders, student workers, etc. are like 90-10 F-M on my campus. We have to intentionally go out of our way to curate male students who might be talked into applying for these kinds of positions, and they benefit from informal affirmative action when they do. This is an open secret at pretty much every university. Young women have to fight each other tooth and nail for everything, whereas any young man who so much as raises his hand is thrust to the front of the line. It's more an a complete reversal from what things were like 30 years ago. College-aged men are worse off today than college-aged women were when we were growing up.

 

[GordonGekko]

VIDEO: Male inequality, explained by an expert | Richard Reeves Jan 4, 2023

Boys and men are falling behind. This might seem surprising to some people, and maybe ridiculous to others, considering that discussions on gender disparities tend to focus on the structural challenges faced by girls and women, not boys and men. But long-term data reveal a clear and alarming trend: In recent decades, American men have been faring increasingly worse in many areas of life, including education, workforce participation, skill acquisition, wages, and fatherhood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBG1Wgg32Ok


*****

Reeves discusses a pretty critical issue.

That there is a clear lack of male teachers out there. Young boys will get most of their positive male adult male influences likely at school. If at all. Many American households are not traditional "nuclear" units anymore.

So if there are no strong positive role models in male teachers and also in male coaches (if there are sports involved) and if the situation is too financially desperate to get into something like an after school program like martial arts, then what remains for the young male child?

Point to note, to add some some concerns that @rockaction has on this matter - No one cared until the ripple effect started to impact other groups / others self interests / others personal profit and platform OUTSIDE of these young males in our society. I consider that issue a double insult to the struggles of young men in our culture.

No one wants to grow up and volunteer to be cannon fodder for a society that keeps telling these kids that they are worthless and that they should ashamed of themselves for misdeeds of others, and especially others in the past.

 

[rockaction]

I'm about half of the way through Reeves' book. I should have more on the subject later. I also feel I might be like typing into the wind and the ether for nothing -- or more precisely, it's a topic where the data and the overall vibe seems so obvious to me, yet it will be met with and have others coming to it from a notion of incredulousness. Like, how could you focus on boys? Isn't it obvious the focus should be on the girls and women? That sort of stuff. We already saw it in fatness' response. I don't want to waste time on those sort of responses.

 

[bigbottom]

I'm about half of the way through Reeves' book. I should have more on the subject later. I also feel I might be like typing into the wind and the ether for nothing -- or more precisely, it's a topic where the data and the overall vibe seems so obvious to me, yet it will be met with and have others coming to it from a notion of incredulousness. Like, how could you focus on boys? Isn't it obvious the focus should be on the girls and women? That sort of stuff. We already saw it in fatness' response. I don't want to waste time on those sort of responses.

I’m looking forward to your summary. I’d read the book myself if I had the discipline to dedicate sufficient free time to read a book at all.

 

[The Duff Man]

When I started dating my wife I used to get mad at her. She would complain about her middle class parents and how messed up her family was….and they were a toxic train wreck.

But I grew up raised by a single mom on welfare. I had never met my dad. And all I could think was “at least you had two parents and some money”.

It was only later as I matured that I realized. Just because she didn’t have the challenges I struggled with doesn’t mean that she didn’t struggle also.

It is the same with gender. Women can have it tough. So can men. It doesn’t have to be the same challenges but they can be equally bad.

 

[Sand]

There were people (like me) that talked about this at length back then, but we were pilloried as anti-feminists and rewarded with copies of Reviving Ophelia as proof that one sex had it harder than the other growing up. Our focus was wrongly placed, they argued, and that's still how the argument goes. We lose two girls in STEM to natural weeding out processes and it's considered a failure; a whole population of men dropped out and people shrug. It's insane.

It's not part of a grievance theory. It's not an adjunct to men's rights guys, either.

We were all set to learn from it, but the second wave of feminism hit the scholastics and the boys went to the back of the bus again in America. And here we are.

This sounds like aggrieved male baloney and PSF material to me.

Rock is completely, utterly correct. The numbers are astonishing. Young men are 3-7x more likely to commit suicide. If that isn't a crisis what is? Schools have been feminized to a massive extent and boys are chronically getting left behind in huge numbers.

I'm aghast that we see comments like this when the issue is so stark, so easy to prove with hard numbers. We need a Manhattan Project on boys education in this country. The situation is that bad.

 

[GordonGekko]

This sounds like aggrieved male baloney and PSF material to me.

VIDEO: Bully (2/9) Movie CLIP - Bus Stop Bullies (2011) HD Oct 10, 2014

At a point in time when bullying in America has reached epidemic proportions, Emmy-winning director Lee Hirsch invites viewers to spend a year in the lives of students and parents who contend with public torment and humiliation on a daily basis. By following the young victims from the classroom to their living rooms, we are given an intimate glimpse into the effects bullying has on their families and their developing sense of self-worth. Meanwhile, parents, administrators, and other students struggle to find a workable solution to the problem that will never go away unless we all stand up and face it eye to eye.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iM3hKlLS5E


This documentary is about five teenagers and the varieties of bullying or harassment that they went through. The film jumps back and forth between the teens to describe their lives. The film starts off by telling the story of Tyler Long and how he died. Tyler’s father speaks about his son’s social issues and how he knew early on that Tyler might become a victim of bullying. Mr. Long mentions that kids took his clothes when he showered, forcing him to leave naked. They shoved him into lockers and demoralized him verbally as well. These actions are said to have led Tyler to commit suicide in 2009, at the age of 17, when his father found him hanging in his closet with a note on the bed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyrv1rNWg0o



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It's easy to be dismissive when you don't have to see their faces. Hear their names. Listen to their stories.

Many of the regular members here have young sons. Did you stop and consider that?

 

[GordonGekko]

My personal mantra is to be faithful to what is in my hand. I cannot change the world or solve this particular immense problem. I can impact others lives. Generally one at a time, always with intentionality. Think of it this way: you can't speak into someone's life unless they have given you express permission, & even then they're unlikely to listen.

Thank you for sharing @BobbyLayne

I appreciate your perspective and empathy, and everyone present recognizes your value to this community. I am glad you are still with us here.

 

[bigbottom]

There were people (like me) that talked about this at length back then, but we were pilloried as anti-feminists and rewarded with copies of Reviving Ophelia as proof that one sex had it harder than the other growing up. Our focus was wrongly placed, they argued, and that's still how the argument goes. We lose two girls in STEM to natural weeding out processes and it's considered a failure; a whole population of men dropped out and people shrug. It's insane.

It's not part of a grievance theory. It's not an adjunct to men's rights guys, either.

We were all set to learn from it, but the second wave of feminism hit the scholastics and the boys went to the back of the bus again in America. And here we are.

This sounds like aggrieved male baloney and PSF material to me.

Rock is completely, utterly correct. The numbers are astonishing. Young men are 3-7x more likely to commit suicide. If that isn't a crisis what is? Schools have been feminized to a massive extent and boys are chronically getting left behind in huge numbers.

I'm aghast that we see comments like this when the issue is so stark, so easy to prove with hard numbers. We need a Manhattan Project on boys education in this country. The situation is that bad.

My sons attended a private school of both boys and girls, but the classes were separated by gender through fifth grade. The thought process was that, as a general matter, boys and girls learn differently and that separate classes greatly benefitted both groups while still allowing for socialization before and after school, during lunch and recess, and in extra curricular activities. I don’t have a strong opinion on the approach, but it did seem to work for my boys.

 

[NewlyRetired]

In my town, a brand new private school was opened with the express priority of teaching boys differently.

The high level theory is that schools for younger kids are too focused on "sit quietly, do your work" which inherently favors girls over boys. Any one with a kid will likely know that girls are doing far better in school than boys.

This new school works in as much activity, including a lot out doors, to keep the boys moving and physical while they learn.

I think it is getting very popular because the schools enrollment is growing significantly.

 

[rockaction]

I finished the book by Reeves. To try and summarize is daunting, but I had that sinking feeling half of the way through.

Let's just say that the education gap has transformed so radically since universities and colleges went co-ed that we've seen almost an exact attendance reversal at both four year-colleges and for those seeking any education after high school. It's summarized at the very beginning of Chapter One in his book with this statement that borders on pat for what it entails: "In 1972, The U.S. passed the landmark Title IX legislation to promote gender equality in higher eduction. At the time, there was a gap of 13 percentage points in the proportion of bachelor's degrees going to men and women. By 1982 the gap had closed. By 2019, the gender gap was 15 percentage points, wider than in 1972 -- but the other way around."

And thus begins the book. It is rife with all sorts of statistics about how men are behind women in education, at work, and in family concerns. Now, the family concerns are the most abstract of the bunch, but the first two categories are looked at with an examiner's pen. What Reeves found wasn't pretty. It pretty much proceeds apace with that little snippet I just offered. It begins with an obvious patriarchal society (in his view), which is then remedied by feminist correctives and then swings dramatically to the benefit of women. He does not blame feminism, though. Just to get that out of the way. He views feminism as a necessary antidote to the former patriarchy and its legal and social doctrines and codes.

But it's quite the harrowing book when men are considered, and one need not sign up to Reeves's worldview from the left or the right to accept the stats. They're there, in bold face, in print, and sourced and cited extensively. To pin the tail on the political donkey if we must, Reeves's worldview comes from the intersectional left, believe it or not. He talks about intersectionality and its benefits in assessing things that way, along with the benefits that second-wave feminism and other feminist waves have brought us.

I say this not to bolster his argument, as I think his praise of feminism is unwarranted given the results of the subject at hand, but instead to really say that accepting these facts is the mark of a serious thinker about the subject. Most people are in agreement with him, if scared to say so. Facts are facts. Selection of facts is important, too, as is framing, but his framing is generally good and square. What better places to start about thinking about quantified achievement than education and the workplace?

Anyway, Reeves points to other countries recognizing that this pendulum swing is disastrous for boys and their futures. He talks about "pojkkrisen," the crisis among boys in Sweden and introduces us to Australia's Boys, Blokes, Books, and Bikes program designed to get boys up to speed in reading. And so goes the book. The boys are falling way behind and we in the Western world are just starting to address it.

Again these stats and quick asides are from the first two pages of Chapter 1 in the book. It's that way all of the way through. Presented as an actual problem. The beginning of the answer to the problem, in my personal opinion, is recognizing that a problem exists, and the book is good at that. A very fair start, anyway.

I hope the U.S. begins to recognize it like other nations have or we've lost another generation of men, IMHO.

 

[pecorino]

There were people (like me) that talked about this at length back then, but we were pilloried as anti-feminists and rewarded with copies of Reviving Ophelia as proof that one sex had it harder than the other growing up. Our focus was wrongly placed, they argued, and that's still how the argument goes. We lose two girls in STEM to natural weeding out processes and it's considered a failure; a whole population of men dropped out and people shrug. It's insane.

It's not part of a grievance theory. It's not an adjunct to men's rights guys, either.

We were all set to learn from it, but the second wave of feminism hit the scholastics and the boys went to the back of the bus again in America. And here we are.

This sounds like aggrieved male baloney and PSF material to me.

Rock is completely, utterly correct. The numbers are astonishing. Young men are 3-7x more likely to commit suicide. If that isn't a crisis what is? Schools have been feminized to a massive extent and boys are chronically getting left behind in huge numbers.

I'm aghast that we see comments like this when the issue is so stark, so easy to prove with hard numbers. We need a Manhattan Project on boys education in this country. The situation is that bad.

Agree with this and with the original post by rock. In fact, in my world the situation is even worse. Being in a 9-12 progressive, very liberal school as an educator, I cannot possibly address this issue with our students / families without putting my job in jeopardy. Anything that is remotely seen as anti-feminist or pro-boy would be met with derision and alienation so I don't touch this topic. Considering a career change, it is that bad.

 

[rockaction]

Being in a 9-12 progressive, very liberal school as an educator, I cannot possibly address this issue with our students / families without putting my job in jeopardy. Anything that is remotely seen as anti-feminist or pro-boy would be met with derision and alienation so I don't touch this topic.

In my experience, it's better to never, ever broach the topics at hand if you want to keep your career and social standing within certain institutions.

 

[pecorino]

Being in a 9-12 progressive, very liberal school as an educator, I cannot possibly address this issue with our students / families without putting my job in jeopardy. Anything that is remotely seen as anti-feminist or pro-boy would be met with derision and alienation so I don't touch this topic.

In my experience, it's better to never, ever broach the topics at hand if you want to keep your career and social standing within certain institutions.

The key is to read the environment. Thankfully, a clear signpost happened in the fall of my first year, 2015. I mention this story because it's tangentially related to the original topic. Our school paid to have an educator / motivational speaker come to address our students about transgender issues. This person espoused the virtues of allowing kids to self-identify their gender as soon as they are able to articulate it, even as young as five years old. After the talk ended, I was chatting with one of our history teachers as we left the assembly hall, saying "That was interesting. I hope we have a chance to hear another side of this issue." I thought it was a completely obvious and innocuous comment. When he replied "What other side?", I knew I wasn't in Kansas anymore.

 

[rockaction]

I thought it was a completely obvious and innocuous comment. When he replied "What other side?", I knew I wasn't in Kansas anymore.

I love those. I once had a woman in class actually look at me and sarcastically and chidingly say, "Boo hoo" when I was citing statistics about how far behind men were falling in education. In an American Legal History class. In law school. In 2007 or 8, so it was already well past the pendulum having swung. And I didn't think I was whining; but stating the obvious. And the response was that. That was what passed for debate. Out loud.

It's going to take more than the obvious for people to wake up. I hope it's not a ton of disenfranchised and pissed off young men voting for or supporting -- and Reeves worries about this, but I had it sussed out over fifteen years ago -- far-right or far-left figures that claim to listen and speak for them.

That's a real worry if this stays unaddressed.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

But it's quite the harrowing book when men are considered, and one need not sign up to Reeves's worldview from the left or the right to accept the stats. They're there, in bold face, in print, and sourced and cited extensively. To pin the tail on the political donkey if we must, Reeves's worldview comes from the intersectional left, believe it or not. He talks about intersectionality and its benefits in assessing things that way, along with the benefits that second-wave feminism and other feminist waves have brought us.

This might get being flagged for being too political, but here goes.

IMO, people on the political right are too dismissive of concepts like intersectionality, microaggressions, structural disadvantages, and so on. I think people in my little camp toss these ideas overboard because of where they originate, but there's a lot for right-wingers to like about them if just give these ideas a fair hearing. You know the mild feeling of irritation you get when you attend a lecture about the migratory bird treaty (or whatever) and the speaker opens with a land acknowledgement and some gratuitous joke about how stupid conservatives are? That's a microaggression, and if you can understand why you get mildly annoyed over stuff like this, you should be able to understand why black people get irritated when folks ask to touch their hair.

Similarly, people who understand how systemic racism operates should have no problem understanding why highly-feminized schools are failing boys. You replaced Treasure Island and Lord of the Flies with Angela's Secret Garden of Feelings and axed recess, and you're wondering why boys aren't thriving? There's really no mystery here. Kudos to the author for taking these ideas and applying them to a problem that lies outside his tribal affiliations.

 

[jwb]

My personal take is that we have spent the last few generations robbing children of the opportunity to develop self-efficacy. While that affects all kids, it especially affects boys and men. When I was a kid (say, 11 or so), I would get up on Saturday morning and tell my mom that I was riding my bike to my buddy's house a couple of miles away and I'd be back by supper. That was fine. She had no idea what we were up to all day, and she had no way to get in touch with us. If we ran into a problem, like a flat tire or twisted ankle, it was up to us to figure it out. Combine that with competitive sports (not me, but other kids) and real work (definitely me), and you produce kids who know that they can overcome obstacles and don't get freaked out by every little setback.

This was my experience too. I live in a subdivision, and I see my neighbor's kids (11 and 9) riding their bikes and scooters in the driveway. They never leave the driveway. I am almost certain they are never more than 100' from an adult responsible for them, ever - it's either home, supervised playdates, or school/activity. This is the norm now it seems. As an older GenX guy who never had kids, I can't comprehend it. How and why did this happen?

 

[GordonGekko]

...... as an educator.....

I appreciate your perspective and insights, @pecorino

From your vantage point, with your training, experience and first hand viewpoint, if you had the power to make sweeping changes, what would you do? What would you choose? What would you prioritize at the top of the list? What would you keep, if anything?

I look forward to your response and I believe many here, including myself, can learn a lot from your insight. Thank you in advance.

 

[NewlyRetired]

This was my experience too. I live in a subdivision, and I see my neighbor's kids (11 and 9) riding their bikes and scooters in the driveway. They never leave the driveway. I am almost certain they are never more than 100' from an adult responsible for them, ever - it's either home, supervised playdates, or school/activity. This is the norm now it seems. As an older GenX guy who never had kids, I can't comprehend it. How and why did this happen?

Law and Order: SVU

And I am only partially kidding. I think an enormous amount of mothers the past 20-25 years are convinced their kids are going to be subjected to the worst humans possible which are constantly on their tv screen.

 

[rockaction]

It should be noted that Reeves barely touches on the "feminized school" or "feminized curriculum" that some here are blaming. He attributes most gains made by women to neuropsychology and adaptation to teaching methods by girls now that they are freely encouraged to succeed in every way possible. It's not a zero sum game, he contends, and he omits any real discussion of feminized schools for the most part. Indeed, I would venture by his thesis that this feminization is a good thing to him, a natural corrective to patriarchy.

He does address the problem in an indirect way by calling for more vocational-agricultural schools at the secondary level. He says boys are often better suited for it.

 

[Manster]

It should be noted that Reeves barely touches on the "feminized school" or "feminized curriculum" that some here are blaming. He attributes most gains made by women to neuropsychology and adaptation to teaching methods by girls now that they are freely encouraged to succeed in every way possible. It's not a zero sum game, he contents, and he omits any real discussion of feminized schools for the most part. Indeed, I would venture by his thesis that this feminization is a good thing to him, a natural corrective to patriarchy.

He does address the problem in an indirect way by calling for more vocational-agricultural schools at the secondary level. He says boys are often better suited for it.

So essentially, women CEO's........men breaking their backs on farms, and in crawl spaces.

 

[Manster]

My personal take is that we have spent the last few generations robbing children of the opportunity to develop self-efficacy. While that affects all kids, it especially affects boys and men. When I was a kid (say, 11 or so), I would get up on Saturday morning and tell my mom that I was riding my bike to my buddy's house a couple of miles away and I'd be back by supper. That was fine. She had no idea what we were up to all day, and she had no way to get in touch with us. If we ran into a problem, like a flat tire or twisted ankle, it was up to us to figure it out. Combine that with competitive sports (not me, but other kids) and real work (definitely me), and you produce kids who know that they can overcome obstacles and don't get freaked out by every little setback.

This was my experience too. I live in a subdivision, and I see my neighbor's kids (11 and 9) riding their bikes and scooters in the driveway. They never leave the driveway. I am almost certain they are never more than 100' from an adult responsible for them, ever - it's either home, supervised playdates, or school/activity. This is the norm now it seems. As an older GenX guy who never had kids, I can't comprehend it. How and why did this happen?

24/7/365 News stream of all thing horrible....along with the narrative that our country is less safe than it's ever been, which is total BS.......but when that's what u r fed as a parent, it's easy to become paranoid.

 

[Sand]

It should be noted that Reeves barely touches on the "feminized school" or "feminized curriculum" that some here are blaming. He attributes most gains made by women to neuropsychology and adaptation to teaching methods by girls now that they are freely encouraged to succeed in every way possible. It's not a zero sum game, he contents, and he omits any real discussion of feminized schools for the most part. Indeed, I would venture by his thesis that this feminization is a good thing to him, a natural corrective to patriarchy.

He does address the problem in an indirect way by calling for more vocational-agricultural schools at the secondary level. He says boys are often better suited for it.

So essentially, women CEO's........men breaking their backs on farms, and in crawl spaces.

Men are already 1000% more likely to die on the job. That is blithely ignored when discussing the "pay gap". Men take more dangerous jobs, much more dangerous jobs, that happen to carry a risk premium. If we want women to gain in salary we need to make sure we kill many more of them on the job. It's for equality!

 

[pecorino]

...... as an educator.....

I appreciate your perspective and insights, @pecorino

From your vantage point, with your training, experience and first hand viewpoint, if you had the power to make sweeping changes, what would you do? What would you choose? What would you prioritize at the top of the list? What would you keep, if anything?

I look forward to your response and I believe many here, including myself, can learn a lot from your insight. Thank you in advance.

Thanks for the kind words. I feel like you're asking for a manifesto which is something I'd be glad to provide if it were written and cogent. And with a massive disclaimer that I am an educator with 30 years of experience but it is all at private schools (though I'm a product of public schooling). My most recent, current job is as an academic dean at a very liberal boarding school.

Some have already alluded to big issues. The anxiety from parents is off-the-charts and it filters to their kids. The image IvanK paints of those halcyon days of boys practically in scenes from Stand by Me are long gone. I am so thankful to have been raised in the 70s and 80s when I had the same experiences he describes. I was also deep into the Boy Scouts which, not for nothing, is co-ed now. Those are real losses and I cannot expand on them better than has already been described.

So we have anxious parents who do not want to allow their kids to experiment or fail. On the liberal side of things, we have the rise of "girl power" which, sure, it is not a zero sum game. But then again, we only have so much time for academic programming at our school or for speakers to come. It is a good thing that the challenges of growing up as a girl are now being recognized and addressed but there are indeed some trade-offs with respect to addressing the needs of boys.

The big picture, though, does not require the expertise of an educator. Everyone sees the societal pressures. This is way bigger than schooling. Some of these have been alluded to (the incessant media focus on fearmongering). I'd also note the general "feminization" that has been going on in America for a while now. I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole. Suffice it to say that, at least where I currently work, one never ever encounters the word "masculinity" without the preceding adjective that everyone knows is there. The connotation of "masculinity" is automatically negative and no wonder boys are struggling to navigate their world growing up. Their very nature is assumed to be toxic.

 

[rockaction]

So essentially, women CEO's........men breaking their backs on farms, and in crawl spaces.

Not really. He advocates for a new direction in male employment that centers on traditionally feminine roles in caregiving. Like nursing and other such professions. He doesn't argue for women overlords and male subordinates. That's too easy and neat a bow for what he's advocating. He's advocating for some form of employment for lower to lower-middle class men.

This isn't War of The Worlds. In fact, he stays specifically away from the zero sum game quagmire.

Men are already 1000% more likely to die on the job. That is blithely ignored when discussing the "pay gap". Men take more dangerous jobs, much more dangerous jobs, that happen to carry a risk premium. If we want women to gain in salary we need to make sure we kill many more of them on the job. It's for equality!

Not sure that pointing that out is really in the realm of what he wanted to do. He wanted to write a non-confrontational book that showed how far behind men were, and I think he achieved it by staying left on the hot-button issues while saying, "Hey, this is a problem." He puts his finger on the discretion button when it comes the hot-button issues like wage gaps and the like for the broader normative sake of policy and policy recognition. It's a flaw in the book, in my opinion, but he does address certain crucial things. It's as far as he's willing to go.

 

[rockaction]

Again, I'd read the book if you're interested in talking about his policies and prescriptions. I'm not going to be able to answer every question about a book I picked up and read a few days ago. It wasn't that rigorous of a read I gave it. The glaring parts were the statistics and how far behind men were. The policy nuances, while they are important, are less so than the recognition of the problem.

The "whys?" and the "how to rectify this?" can start after the recognition in some quarters that we have a problem, Houston. Because we still don't have the ear of the intellectual, a process important in policy. It generally takes about twenty years for policies and policy prescriptions to filter down from the intellectual to the public consciousness, largely because the problem is still undiagnosed on the body politic.

 

[Manster]

...... as an educator.....

I appreciate your perspective and insights, @pecorino

From your vantage point, with your training, experience and first hand viewpoint, if you had the power to make sweeping changes, what would you do? What would you choose? What would you prioritize at the top of the list? What would you keep, if anything?

I look forward to your response and I believe many here, including myself, can learn a lot from your insight. Thank you in advance.

Thanks for the kind words. I feel like you're asking for a manifesto which is something I'd be glad to provide if it were written and cogent. And with a massive disclaimer that I am an educator with 30 years of experience but it is all at private schools (though I'm a product of public schooling). My most recent, current job is as an academic dean at a very liberal boarding school.

Some have already alluded to big issues. The anxiety from parents is off-the-charts and it filters to their kids. The image IvanK paints of those halcyon days of boys practically in scenes from Stand by Me are long gone. I am so thankful to have been raised in the 70s and 80s when I had the same experiences he describes. I was also deep into the Boy Scouts which, not for nothing, is co-ed now. Those are real losses and I cannot expand on them better than has already been described.

So we have anxious parents who do not want to allow their kids to experiment or fail. On the liberal side of things, we have the rise of "girl power" which, sure, it is not a zero sum game. But then again, we only have so much time for academic programming at our school or for speakers to come. It is a good thing that the challenges of growing up as a girl are now being recognized and addressed but there are indeed some trade-offs with respect to addressing the needs of boys.

The big picture, though, does not require the expertise of an educator. Everyone sees the societal pressures. This is way bigger than schooling. Some of these have been alluded to (the incessant media focus on fearmongering). I'd also note the general "feminization" that has been going on in America for a while now. I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole. Suffice it to say that, at least where I currently work, one never ever encounters the word "masculinity" without the preceding adjective that everyone knows is there. The connotation of "masculinity" is automatically negative and no wonder boys are struggling to navigate their world growing up. Their very nature is assumed to be toxic.

Thank you for sharing your insight. Much more eloquent than I could ever be.

I'm almost always big picture......imo, most of the social issues we face are based on the pendulum swinging too far the other way......the wrongs of our past are righted in legislation, social norms, etc......but the unintended (maybe? Not always?) consequences are that we build this group up, to the detriment of another group. It's like there has to be a hardline approach....you're either in, or you're out. I don't believe that a majority of us feel this way, but we are manipulated into believing we must take sides......politics, and media use our emotions against us.

It's no wonder why people are re-aligning where they choose to live. The extremes are pushed more into the forefront causing more pushback, and more anxiety. It creates a lot of toxicity.....meanwhile some of us who just want to raise confident, decent little humans are not sure how to manage all the noise, all around us. It's exhausting.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

“A man may conquer a million men in battle, but one who conquers himself is, indeed, the greatest of conquerors.” – Buddha

Fantastic quote.

I have reservations on any provocative subject stating there is a mental health crisis indicating the media plays a role or uses buzz words like, bullying, or that hints of symptoms of toxic male syndrome, etc.
Young people of either sex who identify with mental health struggles may be unaware of wounds which may have come in early childhood.
Wounded people struggle.
Discussing surface issues and blaming the media, pressing hot-button topics such as bullying can devolve into venting or blaming others. Identifying root causes can produce fruitful discussion and understanding where the greatest value can happen.
Helping others to conquer their own issues.

I'm no expert but saw this and thought it was interesting.
------
LINK
Premises - typical young kids exposed to adult abandonment, neglect, and abuse (trauma) survive by evolving a personality composed of many specialized subselves or parts. This usually results in up to five more psychological wounds, which hinder healthy development and social functioning. The effects of these wounds range from minor to severe.

Survivors of early-childhood trauma are called "Grown Wounded Children" (GWCs) in this Web site. Because ineffective parenting is the norm, many or most average people have moderate to severe wounds. That makes relating to them "well" a challenge.

This article offers...

• perspective on "wounding"​
• how to recognize a significantly-wounded adult or child​
• options for relating well to a significantly-wounded person; and...​
• options for five special relationships.​

--------------------------------
Go to the link for the full read.

 

[Terpman22]

Without reading any of the responses, I will say its 90% Social Media and people inabilities to no longer be able to deal with people "in person" b/c online life is not the same as, ya know, life as it is. The edited life of Facebook where everyone's life looks awesome, Instagram where everyone is an expert at body editing and making the "just right" filter for their skin tone and Twitter where, lets face it, everyone likes to argue and the owner now is amplifying the "hate" more than the previous guys, and tik tok, which I don't even partake in, where everyone is a star, in their own mind, and people still chasing some lower level of "fame" . As a guy who grew up as a teen "before" the internet, its painfully obvious to see most people that are a decade+ younger than me just don't know how to deal anymore as "we used to in the good ole days"

And no one can just unplug. Its too addicting. A viscous cycle that really sees no end.

 

[Gally]

Without reading any of the responses, I will say its 90% Social Media and people inabilities to no longer be able to deal with people "in person" b/c online life is not the same as, ya know, life as it is. The edited life of Facebook where everyone's life looks awesome, Instagram where everyone is an expert at body editing and making the "just right" filter for their skin tone and Twitter where, lets face it, everyone likes to argue and the owner now is amplifying the "hate" more than the previous guys, and tik tok, which I don't even partake in, where everyone is a star, in their own mind, and people still chasing some lower level of "fame" . As a guy who grew up as a teen "before" the internet, its painfully obvious to see most people that are a decade+ younger than me just don't know how to deal anymore as "we used to in the good ole days"

And no one can just unplug. Its too addicting. A viscous cycle that really sees no end.

I would add in the society as a whole attacking masculinity and people getting offended over the littlest thing it makes it hard to really just be relaxed. Always worrying about what you say being misconstrued or attacked over things you never even intended or implied.

This goes for everyone (not just males) but with the rise of women (warranted and should be happening) it takes on a direction of putting males down to boost up women. Rather than just boosting women. This takes a toll.

 

[Terpman22]

Without reading any of the responses, I will say its 90% Social Media and people inabilities to no longer be able to deal with people "in person" b/c online life is not the same as, ya know, life as it is. The edited life of Facebook where everyone's life looks awesome, Instagram where everyone is an expert at body editing and making the "just right" filter for their skin tone and Twitter where, lets face it, everyone likes to argue and the owner now is amplifying the "hate" more than the previous guys, and tik tok, which I don't even partake in, where everyone is a star, in their own mind, and people still chasing some lower level of "fame" . As a guy who grew up as a teen "before" the internet, its painfully obvious to see most people that are a decade+ younger than me just don't know how to deal anymore as "we used to in the good ole days"

And no one can just unplug. Its too addicting. A viscous cycle that really sees no end.

I would add in the society as a whole attacking masculinity and people getting offended over the littlest thing it makes it hard to really just be relaxed. Always worrying about what you say being misconstrued or attacked over things you never even intended or implied.

This goes for everyone (not just males) but with the rise of women (warranted and should be happening) it takes on a direction of putting males down to boost up women. Rather than just boosting women. This takes a toll.

Eh, I guess I disagree. I think part of being a man is actually being a man and not getting too offended, especially on a changing society where we are veering toward a bit more equality. If "taking away your jokes about women" makes you feel less of a man, maybe you weren't that much of one to begin with is kinda my thought process. You gotta feel comfortable in your own skin. If you aren't, a lot of problems, besides a chancing society will have adverse affects on your psyche.

"The Rise of Women" is an interesting set of words.

 

[Gally]

Eh, I guess I disagree. I think part of being a man is actually being a man and not getting too offended, especially on a changing society where we are veering toward a bit more equality. If "taking away your jokes about women" makes you feel less of a man, maybe you weren't that much of one to begin with is kinda my thought process. You gotta feel comfortable in your own skin. If you aren't, a lot of problems, besides a chancing society will have adverse affects on your psyche.

"The Rise of Women" is an interesting set of words.

Oh I agree completely with this. My comment was more as to what is happening. All people should be able to not get offended and need to be comfortable with who they are. But when face to face interaction is not happening as much as it used to and you get bombarded with on line arguments and people misconstruing your thoughts it can take a toll. I am not saying it should but that it does for many people.

 

[Gally]

If "taking away your jokes about women" makes you feel less of a man, maybe you weren't that much of one to begin with is kinda my thought process.

I never said anything about "taking away jokes about women". Not sure where this came from.

 

[Terpman22]

If "taking away your jokes about women" makes you feel less of a man, maybe you weren't that much of one to begin with is kinda my thought process.

I never said anything about "taking away jokes about women". Not sure where this came from.

Oh yeah, not referring to you in general, just kind of the theme I hear from old boomers these days "This lady was so offended I said she could be my secretary" kind of stuff. I hear it a lot from co workers and people from that older generation (than me). No worries.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Without reading any of the responses, I will say its 90% Social Media and people inabilities to no longer be able to deal with people "in person" b/c online life is not the same as, ya know, life as it is. The edited life of Facebook where everyone's life looks awesome, Instagram where everyone is an expert at body editing and making the "just right" filter for their skin tone and Twitter where, lets face it, everyone likes to argue and the owner now is amplifying the "hate" more than the previous guys, and tik tok, which I don't even partake in, where everyone is a star, in their own mind, and people still chasing some lower level of "fame" . As a guy who grew up as a teen "before" the internet, its painfully obvious to see most people that are a decade+ younger than me just don't know how to deal anymore as "we used to in the good ole days"

And no one can just unplug. Its too addicting. A viscous cycle that really sees no end.

I would add in the society as a whole attacking masculinity and people getting offended over the littlest thing it makes it hard to really just be relaxed. Always worrying about what you say being misconstrued or attacked over things you never even intended or implied.

This goes for everyone (not just males) but with the rise of women (warranted and should be happening) it takes on a direction of putting males down to boost up women. Rather than just boosting women. This takes a toll.

Eh, I guess I disagree. I think part of being a man is actually being a man and not getting too offended, especially on a changing society where we are veering toward a bit more equality. If "taking away your jokes about women" makes you feel less of a man, maybe you weren't that much of one to begin with is kinda my thought process. You gotta feel comfortable in your own skin. If you aren't, a lot of problems, besides a chancing society will have adverse affects on your psyche.

"The Rise of Women" is an interesting set of words.

My workplace went from male-dominated to female-dominated during my career, and "the rise of women" is unfortunately a pretty good way of putting it. Twenty years ago, I dismissed statements like "men care about logic, women care about feelings" out of hand, but I now realize that I was wrong to do so. Obviously I'm painting with a broad brush here, but as a group, women have different leadership styles than men. Specifically, they value empathy a lot more than men typically do. In some cases, that's good, such as when it results in a more family-friendly workplace with better work-life balance. But taken to an extreme, it creates a dysfunctional environment where people are more interested in how things make people feel than whether or not those things work.

I'm extremely confident that it's not just my industry. IMO, it's not a coincidence that many of our institutions broke down right around the time that women achieved a critical mass in senior leadership teams. Cold-blooded pragmatism turned out to be a load-bearing wall that shouldn't have been torn down so blithely.

 

[Ilov80s]

Just stumbling on this...and as a teacher, I do find the current generation of young males pathetic. But then again, I would have surely viewed myself as such if we could manage the time bending physics required for that.

I am skeptical but interested in the topic. I just look at school now as a teacher and look at school 20+ years ago when I was a student and don't see much difference. Of course I am locked into my small regional and SES world. Despite being a millennial, I am on the border with Gen X, so I also have the general feeling of saying "man up don't be a p----y" or "just have a drink and get over it" to issues men face so I am not exactly a great role model here either. I guess I need some education.