Biden To Forgive $10k In Student Loans (1 Viewer)

[FairWarning]

They may be going to the wrong college then if they cannot afford the tuition, agree?

Not sure this is the right question. We can cite many examples of really poor, yet really smart kids who want to go on to better themselves by becoming doctors or lawyers or groundbreaking scientists. If left to their own devices NO school is attainable. It simply is not an option financially (without aid). A great many of them have had to already overcome obstacles the average student hasn't had to deal with and now, simply because they are poor, they have to give up on their dreams. I find that problematic and a huge loss for society in general. Especially when I know that if we just purchased a few less F35s per year or a few less weapons systems per year we could help almost all of them with ease.

If they are poor, they are probably getting a lot of aid/scholarships, pell grants etc - especially if they are a minority. Now many do live over their heads in college. Those CC companies LOVE college students. The cost of colllege really needs to be looked at. A lot of them are paying for status.

At the end of the day, it’s not the richest 1% that has to pay this bill, it’s the people who are least able to afford it.

 

[FairWarning]

How long have we had student loan forgiveness? Are these people saving the money, paying anyway, or what? What will they do when they actually have to start paying?

 

[shadrap]

never thought I'd have to pay back a student loan in my golden years, but here I am.

 

[Mitchie]

They may be going to the wrong college then if they cannot afford the tuition, agree?

Not sure this is the right question. We can cite many examples of really poor, yet really smart kids who want to go on to better themselves by becoming doctors or lawyers or groundbreaking scientists. If left to their own devices NO school is attainable. It simply is not an option financially (without aid). A great many of them have had to already overcome obstacles the average student hasn't had to deal with and now, simply because they are poor, they have to give up on their dreams. I find that problematic and a huge loss for society in general. Especially when I know that if we just purchased a few less F35s per year or a few less weapons systems per year we could help almost all of them with ease.

If they are poor, they are probably getting a lot of aid/scholarships, pell grants etc - especially if they are a minority. Now many do live over their heads in college. Those CC companies LOVE college students. The cost of colllege really needs to be looked at. A lot of them are paying for status.

At the end of the day, it’s not the richest 1% that has to pay this bill, it’s the people who are least able to afford it.

How do you figure?

 

[The Commish]

They may be going to the wrong college then if they cannot afford the tuition, agree?

Not sure this is the right question. We can cite many examples of really poor, yet really smart kids who want to go on to better themselves by becoming doctors or lawyers or groundbreaking scientists. If left to their own devices NO school is attainable. It simply is not an option financially (without aid). A great many of them have had to already overcome obstacles the average student hasn't had to deal with and now, simply because they are poor, they have to give up on their dreams. I find that problematic and a huge loss for society in general. Especially when I know that if we just purchased a few less F35s per year or a few less weapons systems per year we could help almost all of them with ease.

If they are poor, they are probably getting a lot of aid/scholarships, pell grants etc - especially if they are a minority. Now many do live over their heads in college. Those CC companies LOVE college students. The cost of colllege really needs to be looked at. A lot of them are paying for status.

At the end of the day, it’s not the richest 1% that has to pay this bill, it’s the people who are least able to afford it.

This is an incorrect assumption. My father was a financial aid director for 45 years. I saw it all. In those moments, I didn't think much about it because...well, I was a kid. Looking back at some of the stories, it absolutely sucks for some. I know people want to believe that this country gives everyone every opportunity to succeed. It's just not true and I saw it all the time. I don't disagree with the things following the bold at all. I've seen plenty of evidence of that as well. The problem in these conversations is the generalizations that we use to justify a position. For whatever reason, we can't accept the fact that every single person is unique with unique circumstances.

 

[Summer Wheat]

My BIL owns his own landscape business. Started out cutting lawns for a company. After 2 years bought his own machine, then added another crew. Wanted to get into bigger jobs to try and make a better living. Had to take on quite a bit of debt for 2 larger trucks and more land moving equipment. Over 200K in total. So he is not making much right now while meeting payroll and cover his equipment notes.

Should he qualify for some debt relief? As a lifelong Dem, or should I say "used" to be a lifelong Dem he is so furious that hard working people who actually start something were totally over looked by Biden.

 

[The Commish]

They may be going to the wrong college then if they cannot afford the tuition, agree?

Not sure this is the right question. We can cite many examples of really poor, yet really smart kids who want to go on to better themselves by becoming doctors or lawyers or groundbreaking scientists. If left to their own devices NO school is attainable. It simply is not an option financially (without aid). A great many of them have had to already overcome obstacles the average student hasn't had to deal with and now, simply because they are poor, they have to give up on their dreams. I find that problematic and a huge loss for society in general. Especially when I know that if we just purchased a few less F35s per year or a few less weapons systems per year we could help almost all of them with ease.

If they are poor, they are probably getting a lot of aid/scholarships, pell grants etc - especially if they are a minority. Now many do live over their heads in college. Those CC companies LOVE college students. The cost of colllege really needs to be looked at. A lot of them are paying for status.

At the end of the day, it’s not the richest 1% that has to pay this bill, it’s the people who are least able to afford it.

How do you figure?

Well, this is easy. "Income tax" is what the government uses as its primary revenue stream in terms of taxes. The top 1% pay virtually ZERO income tax. It all rolls down to those who make just enough to pay federal taxes but aren't wealthy enough to avoid income tax.

 

[Snotbubbles]

They government should just do away with interest on these loans and make the debtor pay the principal back. Until they stop guaranteeing the loans, tuition will continue to sky-rocket.

My BIL owns his own landscape business. Started out cutting lawns for a company. After 2 years bought his own machine, then added another crew. Wanted to get into bigger jobs to try and make a better living. Had to take on quite a bit of debt for 2 larger trucks and more land moving equipment. Over 200K in total. So he is not making much right now while meeting payroll and cover his equipment notes.

Should he qualify for some debt relief? As a lifelong Dem, or should I say "used" to be a lifelong Dem he is so furious that hard working people who actually start something were totally over looked by Biden.

He can discharge his debts through bankruptcy.

 

[FairWarning]

They may be going to the wrong college then if they cannot afford the tuition, agree?

Not sure this is the right question. We can cite many examples of really poor, yet really smart kids who want to go on to better themselves by becoming doctors or lawyers or groundbreaking scientists. If left to their own devices NO school is attainable. It simply is not an option financially (without aid). A great many of them have had to already overcome obstacles the average student hasn't had to deal with and now, simply because they are poor, they have to give up on their dreams. I find that problematic and a huge loss for society in general. Especially when I know that if we just purchased a few less F35s per year or a few less weapons systems per year we could help almost all of them with ease.

If they are poor, they are probably getting a lot of aid/scholarships, pell grants etc - especially if they are a minority. Now many do live over their heads in college. Those CC companies LOVE college students. The cost of colllege really needs to be looked at. A lot of them are paying for status.

At the end of the day, it’s not the richest 1% that has to pay this bill, it’s the people who are least able to afford it.

How do you figure?

Who can least likely afford higher taxes? eventually this has to get paid.

 

[Snotbubbles]

They may be going to the wrong college then if they cannot afford the tuition, agree?

Not sure this is the right question. We can cite many examples of really poor, yet really smart kids who want to go on to better themselves by becoming doctors or lawyers or groundbreaking scientists. If left to their own devices NO school is attainable. It simply is not an option financially (without aid). A great many of them have had to already overcome obstacles the average student hasn't had to deal with and now, simply because they are poor, they have to give up on their dreams. I find that problematic and a huge loss for society in general. Especially when I know that if we just purchased a few less F35s per year or a few less weapons systems per year we could help almost all of them with ease.

If they are poor, they are probably getting a lot of aid/scholarships, pell grants etc - especially if they are a minority. Now many do live over their heads in college. Those CC companies LOVE college students. The cost of colllege really needs to be looked at. A lot of them are paying for status.

At the end of the day, it’s not the richest 1% that has to pay this bill, it’s the people who are least able to afford it.

How do you figure?

Well, this is easy. "Income tax" is what the government uses as its primary revenue stream in terms of taxes. The top 1% pay virtually ZERO income tax. It all rolls down to those who make just enough to pay federal taxes but aren't wealthy enough to avoid income tax.

What?

Summary of the Latest Federal Income Tax Data, 2023 Update

The latest IRS data shows that the U.S. federal individual income tax continued to be progressive, borne primarily by the highest income earners.

taxfoundation.org

• The top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent.
• The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.8 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.2 percent).

 

[FairWarning]

They may be going to the wrong college then if they cannot afford the tuition, agree?

Not sure this is the right question. We can cite many examples of really poor, yet really smart kids who want to go on to better themselves by becoming doctors or lawyers or groundbreaking scientists. If left to their own devices NO school is attainable. It simply is not an option financially (without aid). A great many of them have had to already overcome obstacles the average student hasn't had to deal with and now, simply because they are poor, they have to give up on their dreams. I find that problematic and a huge loss for society in general. Especially when I know that if we just purchased a few less F35s per year or a few less weapons systems per year we could help almost all of them with ease.

If they are poor, they are probably getting a lot of aid/scholarships, pell grants etc - especially if they are a minority. Now many do live over their heads in college. Those CC companies LOVE college students. The cost of colllege really needs to be looked at. A lot of them are paying for status.

At the end of the day, it’s not the richest 1% that has to pay this bill, it’s the people who are least able to afford it.

This is an incorrect assumption. My father was a financial aid director for 45 years. I saw it all. In those moments, I didn't think much about it because...well, I was a kid. Looking back at some of the stories, it absolutely sucks for some. I know people want to believe that this country gives everyone every opportunity to succeed. It's just not true and I saw it all the time. I don't disagree with the things following the bold at all. I've seen plenty of evidence of that as well. The problem in these conversations is the generalizations that we use to justify a position. For whatever reason, we can't accept the fact that every single person is unique with unique circumstances.

Every situation is unique, no doubt. It’s still nobody’s “right” to attend college to succeed.

 

[The Commish]

They may be going to the wrong college then if they cannot afford the tuition, agree?

Not sure this is the right question. We can cite many examples of really poor, yet really smart kids who want to go on to better themselves by becoming doctors or lawyers or groundbreaking scientists. If left to their own devices NO school is attainable. It simply is not an option financially (without aid). A great many of them have had to already overcome obstacles the average student hasn't had to deal with and now, simply because they are poor, they have to give up on their dreams. I find that problematic and a huge loss for society in general. Especially when I know that if we just purchased a few less F35s per year or a few less weapons systems per year we could help almost all of them with ease.

If they are poor, they are probably getting a lot of aid/scholarships, pell grants etc - especially if they are a minority. Now many do live over their heads in college. Those CC companies LOVE college students. The cost of colllege really needs to be looked at. A lot of them are paying for status.

At the end of the day, it’s not the richest 1% that has to pay this bill, it’s the people who are least able to afford it.

This is an incorrect assumption. My father was a financial aid director for 45 years. I saw it all. In those moments, I didn't think much about it because...well, I was a kid. Looking back at some of the stories, it absolutely sucks for some. I know people want to believe that this country gives everyone every opportunity to succeed. It's just not true and I saw it all the time. I don't disagree with the things following the bold at all. I've seen plenty of evidence of that as well. The problem in these conversations is the generalizations that we use to justify a position. For whatever reason, we can't accept the fact that every single person is unique with unique circumstances.

Every situation is unique, no doubt. It’s still nobody’s “right” to attend college to succeed.

I've never made that argument

Though, I do think we need to pause and think about how we view education in this country.

 

[Summer Wheat]

They government should just do away with interest on these loans and make the debtor pay the principal back. Until they stop guaranteeing the loans, tuition will continue to sky-rocket.

My BIL owns his own landscape business. Started out cutting lawns for a company. After 2 years bought his own machine, then added another crew. Wanted to get into bigger jobs to try and make a better living. Had to take on quite a bit of debt for 2 larger trucks and more land moving equipment. Over 200K in total. So he is not making much right now while meeting payroll and cover his equipment notes.

Should he qualify for some debt relief? As a lifelong Dem, or should I say "used" to be a lifelong Dem he is so furious that hard working people who actually start something were totally over looked by Biden.

He can discharge his debts through bankruptcy.

Is declaring bankruptcy while trying to get traction in a business a good business plan? Stick your debt on someone else?

 

[JIslander]

They government should just do away with interest on these loans and make the debtor pay the principal back. Until they stop guaranteeing the loans, tuition will continue to sky-rocket.

My BIL owns his own landscape business. Started out cutting lawns for a company. After 2 years bought his own machine, then added another crew. Wanted to get into bigger jobs to try and make a better living. Had to take on quite a bit of debt for 2 larger trucks and more land moving equipment. Over 200K in total. So he is not making much right now while meeting payroll and cover his equipment notes.

Should he qualify for some debt relief? As a lifelong Dem, or should I say "used" to be a lifelong Dem he is so furious that hard working people who actually start something were totally over looked by Biden.

He can discharge his debts through bankruptcy.

Is declaring bankruptcy while trying to get traction in a business a good business plan? Stick your debt on someone else?

Its likely a pillar component to "success" in the "Art of the Deal"

 

[MAC_32]

If they are poor, they are probably getting a lot of aid/scholarships, pell grants etc - especially if they are a minority. Now many do live over their heads in college. Those CC companies LOVE college students. The cost of colllege really needs to be looked at. A lot of them are paying for status.

At the end of the day, it’s not the richest 1% that has to pay this bill, it’s the people who are least able to afford it.

The bolded are not good assumptions.

 

[FairWarning]

If they are poor, they are probably getting a lot of aid/scholarships, pell grants etc - especially if they are a minority. Now many do live over their heads in college. Those CC companies LOVE college students. The cost of colllege really needs to be looked at. A lot of them are paying for status.

At the end of the day, it’s not the richest 1% that has to pay this bill, it’s the people who are least able to afford it.

The bolded are not good assumptions.

Ok then even more reason why they shouldn’t be taking out a lot of loans, agree?

 

[Max Power]

If they are poor, they are probably getting a lot of aid/scholarships, pell grants etc - especially if they are a minority. Now many do live over their heads in college. Those CC companies LOVE college students. The cost of colllege really needs to be looked at. A lot of them are paying for status.

At the end of the day, it’s not the richest 1% that has to pay this bill, it’s the people who are least able to afford it.

The bolded are not good assumptions.

I'd disagree with your assessment of students not living over their heads comment. Its the American way to live beyond your means. Of course students are doing it at a higher clip. A lot don't know any better and they know its a bill they don't have to worry about today.

 

[MAC_32]

If they are poor, they are probably getting a lot of aid/scholarships, pell grants etc - especially if they are a minority. Now many do live over their heads in college. Those CC companies LOVE college students. The cost of colllege really needs to be looked at. A lot of them are paying for status.

At the end of the day, it’s not the richest 1% that has to pay this bill, it’s the people who are least able to afford it.

The bolded are not good assumptions.

Ok then even more reason why they shouldn’t be taking out a lot of loans, agree?

If the objective is to keep those too poor to attend college poor then this accomplishes that goal.

 

[The Commish]

They may be going to the wrong college then if they cannot afford the tuition, agree?

Not sure this is the right question. We can cite many examples of really poor, yet really smart kids who want to go on to better themselves by becoming doctors or lawyers or groundbreaking scientists. If left to their own devices NO school is attainable. It simply is not an option financially (without aid). A great many of them have had to already overcome obstacles the average student hasn't had to deal with and now, simply because they are poor, they have to give up on their dreams. I find that problematic and a huge loss for society in general. Especially when I know that if we just purchased a few less F35s per year or a few less weapons systems per year we could help almost all of them with ease.

If they are poor, they are probably getting a lot of aid/scholarships, pell grants etc - especially if they are a minority. Now many do live over their heads in college. Those CC companies LOVE college students. The cost of colllege really needs to be looked at. A lot of them are paying for status.

At the end of the day, it’s not the richest 1% that has to pay this bill, it’s the people who are least able to afford it.

How do you figure?

Well, this is easy. "Income tax" is what the government uses as its primary revenue stream in terms of taxes. The top 1% pay virtually ZERO income tax. It all rolls down to those who make just enough to pay federal taxes but aren't wealthy enough to avoid income tax.

What?

Summary of the Latest Federal Income Tax Data, 2023 Update

The latest IRS data shows that the U.S. federal individual income tax continued to be progressive, borne primarily by the highest income earners.

taxfoundation.org

• The top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent.
• The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.8 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.2 percent).

I misspoke...should read "virtually ZERO tax compared to wealth". Had too many thoughts going through my mind at once. Those in the lower tax brackets pay WAY closer to their tax bracket amount than those on the upper side. When a tax bracket is 37% and your effective rate is sub 10% vs your tax bracket being 15% and you paying 5% that's a substantial gap that the bottom has to support.

ETA: Or to be clearer, the higher up the tax brackets one goes, the more loopholes to avoid taxes one gets to enjoy. By the time you're at the 1% they are enjoying significantly more opportunities to keep their money than those lower on the totem poll. When you are running a deficit like we are, all that trickles downhill to those who don't make enough to enjoy the loopholes.

That's probably a better way to state the point I was trying to make.

 

[MAC_32]

If they are poor, they are probably getting a lot of aid/scholarships, pell grants etc - especially if they are a minority. Now many do live over their heads in college. Those CC companies LOVE college students. The cost of colllege really needs to be looked at. A lot of them are paying for status.

At the end of the day, it’s not the richest 1% that has to pay this bill, it’s the people who are least able to afford it.

The bolded are not good assumptions.

I'd disagree with your assessment of students not living over their heads comment. Its the American way to live beyond your means. Of course students are doing it at a higher clip. A lot don't know any better and they know its a bill they don't have to worry about today.

If one is speaking in absolutes, of course. A reasonable person would conclude that I was not speaking in absolutes though.

 

[Summer Wheat]

They government should just do away with interest on these loans and make the debtor pay the principal back. Until they stop guaranteeing the loans, tuition will continue to sky-rocket.

My BIL owns his own landscape business. Started out cutting lawns for a company. After 2 years bought his own machine, then added another crew. Wanted to get into bigger jobs to try and make a better living. Had to take on quite a bit of debt for 2 larger trucks and more land moving equipment. Over 200K in total. So he is not making much right now while meeting payroll and cover his equipment notes.

Should he qualify for some debt relief? As a lifelong Dem, or should I say "used" to be a lifelong Dem he is so furious that hard working people who actually start something were totally over looked by Biden.

He can discharge his debts through bankruptcy.

Is declaring bankruptcy while trying to get traction in a business a good business plan? Stick your debt on someone else?

Its likely a pillar component to "success" in the "Art of the Deal"

Should young business owners get some debt relief or not? That is the question. My bIL is a HS grad who never attended college, just worked right out of HS.

 

[Shula-holic]

They may be going to the wrong college then if they cannot afford the tuition, agree?

Not sure this is the right question. We can cite many examples of really poor, yet really smart kids who want to go on to better themselves by becoming doctors or lawyers or groundbreaking scientists. If left to their own devices NO school is attainable. It simply is not an option financially (without aid). A great many of them have had to already overcome obstacles the average student hasn't had to deal with and now, simply because they are poor, they have to give up on their dreams. I find that problematic and a huge loss for society in general. Especially when I know that if we just purchased a few less F35s per year or a few less weapons systems per year we could help almost all of them with ease.

If they are poor, they are probably getting a lot of aid/scholarships, pell grants etc - especially if they are a minority. Now many do live over their heads in college. Those CC companies LOVE college students. The cost of colllege really needs to be looked at. A lot of them are paying for status.

At the end of the day, it’s not the richest 1% that has to pay this bill, it’s the people who are least able to afford it.

How do you figure?

Well, this is easy. "Income tax" is what the government uses as its primary revenue stream in terms of taxes. The top 1% pay virtually ZERO income tax. It all rolls down to those who make just enough to pay federal taxes but aren't wealthy enough to avoid income tax.

Say what?... ETA I see you explained more later. I don't really agree but I see what you're getting at

 

[Max Power]

If they are poor, they are probably getting a lot of aid/scholarships, pell grants etc - especially if they are a minority. Now many do live over their heads in college. Those CC companies LOVE college students. The cost of colllege really needs to be looked at. A lot of them are paying for status.

At the end of the day, it’s not the richest 1% that has to pay this bill, it’s the people who are least able to afford it.

The bolded are not good assumptions.

I'd disagree with your assessment of students not living over their heads comment. Its the American way to live beyond your means. Of course students are doing it at a higher clip. A lot don't know any better and they know its a bill they don't have to worry about today.

If one is speaking in absolutes, of course. A reasonable person would conclude that I was not speaking in absolutes though.

I'm still confused with what you're trying to say then. Why is it not a good assumption to assume students acquired additional college debt due to living beyond their means?

 

[Snotbubbles]

They government should just do away with interest on these loans and make the debtor pay the principal back. Until they stop guaranteeing the loans, tuition will continue to sky-rocket.

My BIL owns his own landscape business. Started out cutting lawns for a company. After 2 years bought his own machine, then added another crew. Wanted to get into bigger jobs to try and make a better living. Had to take on quite a bit of debt for 2 larger trucks and more land moving equipment. Over 200K in total. So he is not making much right now while meeting payroll and cover his equipment notes.

Should he qualify for some debt relief? As a lifelong Dem, or should I say "used" to be a lifelong Dem he is so furious that hard working people who actually start something were totally over looked by Biden.

He can discharge his debts through bankruptcy.

Is declaring bankruptcy while trying to get traction in a business a good business plan? Stick your debt on someone else?

You seem to be moving the goal posts here, if you want your debt forgiven, you can declare bankruptcy. A person who has student loan debt can't.

If your BIL's business failed and he didn't have the capital to pay off the debts, should he spend the rest of his life paying them off or just declare bankruptcy and start again? He has advantages over a student borrower.

 

[Summer Wheat]

They government should just do away with interest on these loans and make the debtor pay the principal back. Until they stop guaranteeing the loans, tuition will continue to sky-rocket.

My BIL owns his own landscape business. Started out cutting lawns for a company. After 2 years bought his own machine, then added another crew. Wanted to get into bigger jobs to try and make a better living. Had to take on quite a bit of debt for 2 larger trucks and more land moving equipment. Over 200K in total. So he is not making much right now while meeting payroll and cover his equipment notes.

Should he qualify for some debt relief? As a lifelong Dem, or should I say "used" to be a lifelong Dem he is so furious that hard working people who actually start something were totally over looked by Biden.

He can discharge his debts through bankruptcy.

Is declaring bankruptcy while trying to get traction in a business a good business plan? Stick your debt on someone else?

You seem to be moving the goal posts here, if you want your debt forgiven, you can declare bankruptcy. A person who has student loan debt can't.

If your BIL's business failed and he didn't have the capital to pay off the debts, should he spend the rest of his life paying them off or just declare bankruptcy and start again? He has advantages over a student borrower.

Not moving any goalposts. The business is not failing, but it is difficult to make a decent living for the near future as he had to take on debt to try to make his life better in the future. Much the same as people who took on college debt to try and make the future better, except he never went to college yet carries the same debt burden and will for years.

Understandable that people like him feel left out and a little bitter of the entitlements given to others. i think you would agree with that.

 

[Snotbubbles]

They government should just do away with interest on these loans and make the debtor pay the principal back. Until they stop guaranteeing the loans, tuition will continue to sky-rocket.

My BIL owns his own landscape business. Started out cutting lawns for a company. After 2 years bought his own machine, then added another crew. Wanted to get into bigger jobs to try and make a better living. Had to take on quite a bit of debt for 2 larger trucks and more land moving equipment. Over 200K in total. So he is not making much right now while meeting payroll and cover his equipment notes.

Should he qualify for some debt relief? As a lifelong Dem, or should I say "used" to be a lifelong Dem he is so furious that hard working people who actually start something were totally over looked by Biden.

He can discharge his debts through bankruptcy.

Is declaring bankruptcy while trying to get traction in a business a good business plan? Stick your debt on someone else?

You seem to be moving the goal posts here, if you want your debt forgiven, you can declare bankruptcy. A person who has student loan debt can't.

If your BIL's business failed and he didn't have the capital to pay off the debts, should he spend the rest of his life paying them off or just declare bankruptcy and start again? He has advantages over a student borrower.

Not moving any goalposts. The business is not failing, but it is difficult to make a decent living for the near future as he had to take on debt to try to make his life better in the future. Much the same as people who took on college debt to try and make the future better, except he never went to college yet carries the same debt burden and will for years.

Understandable that people like him feel left out and a little bitter of the entitlements given to others. i think you would agree with that.

Yes, but you are ignoring the fact that he can discharge his debt if he needed to. What avenues does a student borrower have when they can't make their payments? They have their accounts go to collections, potentially have their wages garnished, tax refunds garnished, their credit is affected and the interest still accrues and the balance grows. You can't put your BIL's debt in the same stratosphere as student loan debt. They aren't even comparable. You're BIL can pay a bankruptcy attorney a couple grand and the debt gets cancelled.

 

[Summer Wheat]

They government should just do away with interest on these loans and make the debtor pay the principal back. Until they stop guaranteeing the loans, tuition will continue to sky-rocket.

My BIL owns his own landscape business. Started out cutting lawns for a company. After 2 years bought his own machine, then added another crew. Wanted to get into bigger jobs to try and make a better living. Had to take on quite a bit of debt for 2 larger trucks and more land moving equipment. Over 200K in total. So he is not making much right now while meeting payroll and cover his equipment notes.

Should he qualify for some debt relief? As a lifelong Dem, or should I say "used" to be a lifelong Dem he is so furious that hard working people who actually start something were totally over looked by Biden.

He can discharge his debts through bankruptcy.

Is declaring bankruptcy while trying to get traction in a business a good business plan? Stick your debt on someone else?

You seem to be moving the goal posts here, if you want your debt forgiven, you can declare bankruptcy. A person who has student loan debt can't.

If your BIL's business failed and he didn't have the capital to pay off the debts, should he spend the rest of his life paying them off or just declare bankruptcy and start again? He has advantages over a student borrower.

Not moving any goalposts. The business is not failing, but it is difficult to make a decent living for the near future as he had to take on debt to try to make his life better in the future. Much the same as people who took on college debt to try and make the future better, except he never went to college yet carries the same debt burden and will for years.

Understandable that people like him feel left out and a little bitter of the entitlements given to others. i think you would agree with that.

Yes, but you are ignoring the fact that he can discharge his debt if he needed to. What avenues does a student borrower have when they can't make their payments? They have their accounts go to collections, potentially have their wages garnished, tax refunds garnished, their credit is affected and the interest still accrues and the balance grows. You can't put your BIL's debt in the same stratosphere as student loan debt. They aren't even comparable. You're BIL can pay a bankruptcy attorney a couple grand and the debt gets cancelled.

Wait..my BIL is not going to file for bankruptcy, he is going to keep grinding but his life will be difficult for years to come until he is able to pay off his debt. not everyone wants to file bankruptcy. They want to work and get ahead.

 

[Snotbubbles]

They government should just do away with interest on these loans and make the debtor pay the principal back. Until they stop guaranteeing the loans, tuition will continue to sky-rocket.

My BIL owns his own landscape business. Started out cutting lawns for a company. After 2 years bought his own machine, then added another crew. Wanted to get into bigger jobs to try and make a better living. Had to take on quite a bit of debt for 2 larger trucks and more land moving equipment. Over 200K in total. So he is not making much right now while meeting payroll and cover his equipment notes.

Should he qualify for some debt relief? As a lifelong Dem, or should I say "used" to be a lifelong Dem he is so furious that hard working people who actually start something were totally over looked by Biden.

He can discharge his debts through bankruptcy.

Is declaring bankruptcy while trying to get traction in a business a good business plan? Stick your debt on someone else?

You seem to be moving the goal posts here, if you want your debt forgiven, you can declare bankruptcy. A person who has student loan debt can't.

If your BIL's business failed and he didn't have the capital to pay off the debts, should he spend the rest of his life paying them off or just declare bankruptcy and start again? He has advantages over a student borrower.

Not moving any goalposts. The business is not failing, but it is difficult to make a decent living for the near future as he had to take on debt to try to make his life better in the future. Much the same as people who took on college debt to try and make the future better, except he never went to college yet carries the same debt burden and will for years.

Understandable that people like him feel left out and a little bitter of the entitlements given to others. i think you would agree with that.

Yes, but you are ignoring the fact that he can discharge his debt if he needed to. What avenues does a student borrower have when they can't make their payments? They have their accounts go to collections, potentially have their wages garnished, tax refunds garnished, their credit is affected and the interest still accrues and the balance grows. You can't put your BIL's debt in the same stratosphere as student loan debt. They aren't even comparable. You're BIL can pay a bankruptcy attorney a couple grand and the debt gets cancelled.

Wait..my BIL is not going to file for bankruptcy, he is going to keep grinding but his life will be difficult for years to come until he is able to pay off his debt. not everyone wants to file bankruptcy. They want to work and get ahead.

I think we're just going in circles here. Maybe he should have taken out a PPP loan so he won't feel so bitter.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I say we just give everyone 10 grand. That would only cost 32900000000000 . That's doable right. Shouldn't hurt anything and it would help everyone let's do it. It doesn't matter if a loaf of bread cost 10 dollars.

Yes we should, and every year per most economist!

 

[Summer Wheat]

They government should just do away with interest on these loans and make the debtor pay the principal back. Until they stop guaranteeing the loans, tuition will continue to sky-rocket.

My BIL owns his own landscape business. Started out cutting lawns for a company. After 2 years bought his own machine, then added another crew. Wanted to get into bigger jobs to try and make a better living. Had to take on quite a bit of debt for 2 larger trucks and more land moving equipment. Over 200K in total. So he is not making much right now while meeting payroll and cover his equipment notes.

Should he qualify for some debt relief? As a lifelong Dem, or should I say "used" to be a lifelong Dem he is so furious that hard working people who actually start something were totally over looked by Biden.

He can discharge his debts through bankruptcy.

Is declaring bankruptcy while trying to get traction in a business a good business plan? Stick your debt on someone else?

You seem to be moving the goal posts here, if you want your debt forgiven, you can declare bankruptcy. A person who has student loan debt can't.

If your BIL's business failed and he didn't have the capital to pay off the debts, should he spend the rest of his life paying them off or just declare bankruptcy and start again? He has advantages over a student borrower.

Not moving any goalposts. The business is not failing, but it is difficult to make a decent living for the near future as he had to take on debt to try to make his life better in the future. Much the same as people who took on college debt to try and make the future better, except he never went to college yet carries the same debt burden and will for years.

Understandable that people like him feel left out and a little bitter of the entitlements given to others. i think you would agree with that.

Yes, but you are ignoring the fact that he can discharge his debt if he needed to. What avenues does a student borrower have when they can't make their payments? They have their accounts go to collections, potentially have their wages garnished, tax refunds garnished, their credit is affected and the interest still accrues and the balance grows. You can't put your BIL's debt in the same stratosphere as student loan debt. They aren't even comparable. You're BIL can pay a bankruptcy attorney a couple grand and the debt gets cancelled.

Wait..my BIL is not going to file for bankruptcy, he is going to keep grinding but his life will be difficult for years to come until he is able to pay off his debt. not everyone wants to file bankruptcy. They want to work and get ahead.

I think we're just going in circles here. Maybe he should have taken out a PPP loan so he won't feel so bitter.

Should college student have done the same? He is a liberal who just wants a slice of the pie..thats all.

 

[MAC_32]

I'm still confused with what you're trying to say then. Why is it not a good assumption to assume students acquired additional college debt due to living beyond their means?

That is a vastly different question than what your previous comment insinuated.

I'd disagree with your assessment of students not living over their heads comment. Its the American way to live beyond your means. Of course students are doing it at a higher clip. A lot don't know any better and they know its a bill they don't have to worry about today.

Is the average millennial or gen z living above their means? Of course - they have substantially less wealth then their elders did at the same age. To broad brush it as it being the American way, a bill they aren't aware of nor worry about, and that this group is doing it at a greater rate than their contemporaries is absurdly ignorant.

 

[Max Power]

I'm still confused with what you're trying to say then. Why is it not a good assumption to assume students acquired additional college debt due to living beyond their means?

That is a vastly different question than what your previous comment insinuated.

I'd disagree with your assessment of students not living over their heads comment. Its the American way to live beyond your means. Of course students are doing it at a higher clip. A lot don't know any better and they know its a bill they don't have to worry about today.

Is the average millennial or gen z living above their means? Of course - they have substantially less wealth then their elders did at the same age. To broad brush it as it being the American way, a bill they aren't aware of nor worry about, and that this group is doing it at a greater rate than their contemporaries is absurdly ignorant.

you seem to be inferring a lot with your replies. Maybe you should work on that.

 

[The Commish]

Anyone know the number of people that will have the entirety of their loans paid off by this thing? Or the claimed number anyway?

 

[Max Power]

Anyone know the number of people that will have the entirety of their loans paid off by this thing? Or the claimed number anyway?

I've heard about 15million owe less than 10k.

 

[Snotbubbles]

They government should just do away with interest on these loans and make the debtor pay the principal back. Until they stop guaranteeing the loans, tuition will continue to sky-rocket.

My BIL owns his own landscape business. Started out cutting lawns for a company. After 2 years bought his own machine, then added another crew. Wanted to get into bigger jobs to try and make a better living. Had to take on quite a bit of debt for 2 larger trucks and more land moving equipment. Over 200K in total. So he is not making much right now while meeting payroll and cover his equipment notes.

Should he qualify for some debt relief? As a lifelong Dem, or should I say "used" to be a lifelong Dem he is so furious that hard working people who actually start something were totally over looked by Biden.

He can discharge his debts through bankruptcy.

Is declaring bankruptcy while trying to get traction in a business a good business plan? Stick your debt on someone else?

You seem to be moving the goal posts here, if you want your debt forgiven, you can declare bankruptcy. A person who has student loan debt can't.

If your BIL's business failed and he didn't have the capital to pay off the debts, should he spend the rest of his life paying them off or just declare bankruptcy and start again? He has advantages over a student borrower.

Not moving any goalposts. The business is not failing, but it is difficult to make a decent living for the near future as he had to take on debt to try to make his life better in the future. Much the same as people who took on college debt to try and make the future better, except he never went to college yet carries the same debt burden and will for years.

Understandable that people like him feel left out and a little bitter of the entitlements given to others. i think you would agree with that.

Yes, but you are ignoring the fact that he can discharge his debt if he needed to. What avenues does a student borrower have when they can't make their payments? They have their accounts go to collections, potentially have their wages garnished, tax refunds garnished, their credit is affected and the interest still accrues and the balance grows. You can't put your BIL's debt in the same stratosphere as student loan debt. They aren't even comparable. You're BIL can pay a bankruptcy attorney a couple grand and the debt gets cancelled.

Wait..my BIL is not going to file for bankruptcy, he is going to keep grinding but his life will be difficult for years to come until he is able to pay off his debt. not everyone wants to file bankruptcy. They want to work and get ahead.

I think we're just going in circles here. Maybe he should have taken out a PPP loan so he won't feel so bitter.

Should college student have done the same? He is a liberal who just wants a slice of the pie..thats all.

Just tell him that to get the loan forgiveness you must take advantage of it. He wants to pay back his debts. So like bankruptcy, he's not going to take advantage. Problem solved.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Anyone know the number of people that will have the entirety of their loans paid off by this thing? Or the claimed number anyway?

Student Loan Debt Statistics [2022]: Average + Total Debt

Find student loan debt statistics, including the national debt balance, average individual balance, and annual growth rates.

educationdata.org

This says 32.2% of borrowers have $10,000 or less in student loan debt.

 

[Sand]

Seems like a BUNCH of pushback on this, as there should be IMO. What's interesting is it's not coming from just one place. Kinda refreshing to see DC act as something other than a rubber stamp for a change. It's been a few years. Even here in the PSF, most of us agree that it's the wrong approach to take.

Not only is it the wrong approach, it just seems there is no logical thought behind what's shoved out there. The most impactful part of this isn't the 10k, it's the 5% income cap on repayment. Let's go down this line. Let's say an education student racks up 50k, 150k, or 500k of debt to get their degree and starts teaching for 50k a year. After 10 years they pay 25k and the rest is expunged. Look at the economics of this from a school's perspective - all degrees just became cost insensitive. Now it doesn't matter how much they charge and what degrees they offer. It's an insane giveaway to colleges and (IMO) massively inflationary above and beyond the already crazy inflation in the education sector.

This administration truly hasn't the foggiest idea what it's doing or what the effects are of its actions. And, unlike the 10-20k forgiveness which is likely to be struck down by the court, the 5% income cap is well within the scope for the administration.

 

[The Commish]

Seems like a BUNCH of pushback on this, as there should be IMO. What's interesting is it's not coming from just one place. Kinda refreshing to see DC act as something other than a rubber stamp for a change. It's been a few years. Even here in the PSF, most of us agree that it's the wrong approach to take.

Not only is it the wrong approach, it just seems there is no logical thought behind what's shoved out there. The most impactful part of this isn't the 10k, it's the 5% income cap on repayment. Let's go down this line. Let's say an education student racks up 50k, 150k, or 500k of debt to get their degree and starts teaching for 50k a year. After 10 years they pay 25k and the rest is expunged. Look at the economics of this from a school's perspective - all degrees just became cost insensitive. Now it doesn't matter how much they charge and what degrees they offer. It's an insane giveaway to colleges and (IMO) massively inflationary above and beyond the already crazy inflation in the education sector.

This administration truly hasn't the foggiest idea what it's doing or what the effects are of its actions. And, unlike the 10-20k forgiveness which is likely to be struck down by the court, the 5% income cap is well within the scope for the administration.

Do you happen to have the text of this bold portion? What I've read is that the 5% is a max to be taken per month on the loans. And then there's a plan for those under $12K original loan balance that the balance would be expunged after 10 years of payments (used to be 20). Feels like the above example you provided is a mixture of two distinctly different things addressed, but I haven't read the EO, so I'm not sure.

 

[Stoneworker]

The partisan political gift that keeps giving. Not only loan forgiveness, but student borrowers also get tax breaks totaling an additional $34 billion. Paid for by...other taxpayer suckers.

President Biden’s student-loan write-off is the gift that keeps on giving, unless you’re the sap who paid off her loan or didn’t go to college. Thanks to a little-known provision in the March 2021 Covid spending bill, student borrowers will get a hefty tax benefit on top of their $10,000 or $20,000 in canceled debt.

Progressives started hounding Mr. Biden on loan forgiveness while he was still on the campaign trail, and they tucked a perk into last year’s $1.9 trillion American Rescue Plan in anticipation. The provision, sponsored by Sens. Elizabeth Warren and Bob Menendez, makes loan forgiveness tax free through Jan. 1, 2026.

This contradicts the normal state and federal tax principle that treats loan forgiveness as taxable income. If a borrower earns income of $60,000, and has $10,000 in loans forgiven, his taxable income for the year becomes $70,000.

Not anymore on federal taxes for student borrowers. According to the Senators, under their tax-free plan an average borrower earning $50,000 in income will save about $2,200 in taxes for every $10,000 of forgiven student loans.

The borrowers get a double bonus, while taxpayers assume another burden in the interest that must be paid on the additional government debt now and higher taxes later. Only some 13 states chose not to follow automatically the new tax-free forgiveness policy in the 2021 bill.

In 2021 Congress’s Joint Committee on Taxation scored the Warren-Menendez provision at a cost of $44 million, since at the time few borrowers were expected to receive forgiveness. But given the sweeping nature of the Biden loan cancellation, the left-leaning Tax Policy Center now estimates the cost could be roughly $34 billion.

There will be no comparable tax reprieve for Americans who take out other loans and struggle to repay, or Americans who were frugal and didn’t take out college loans.

Source: WSJ

 

[MAC_32]

Seems like a BUNCH of pushback on this, as there should be IMO. What's interesting is it's not coming from just one place. Kinda refreshing to see DC act as something other than a rubber stamp for a change. It's been a few years. Even here in the PSF, most of us agree that it's the wrong approach to take.

Not only is it the wrong approach, it just seems there is no logical thought behind what's shoved out there. The most impactful part of this isn't the 10k, it's the 5% income cap on repayment. Let's go down this line. Let's say an education student racks up 50k, 150k, or 500k of debt to get their degree and starts teaching for 50k a year. After 10 years they pay 25k and the rest is expunged. Look at the economics of this from a school's perspective - all degrees just became cost insensitive. Now it doesn't matter how much they charge and what degrees they offer. It's an insane giveaway to colleges and (IMO) massively inflationary above and beyond the already crazy inflation in the education sector.

This administration truly hasn't the foggiest idea what it's doing or what the effects are of its actions. And, unlike the 10-20k forgiveness which is likely to be struck down by the court, the 5% income cap is well within the scope for the administration.

There is one rather significant variable you're not considering in this hypothetical - the max most undergrads can borrow from the feds is $31K.

 

[djmich]

They may be going to the wrong college then if they cannot afford the tuition, agree?

Not sure this is the right question. We can cite many examples of really poor, yet really smart kids who want to go on to better themselves by becoming doctors or lawyers or groundbreaking scientists. If left to their own devices NO school is attainable. It simply is not an option financially (without aid). A great many of them have had to already overcome obstacles the average student hasn't had to deal with and now, simply because they are poor, they have to give up on their dreams. I find that problematic and a huge loss for society in general. Especially when I know that if we just purchased a few less F35s per year or a few less weapons systems per year we could help almost all of them with ease.

If they are poor, they are probably getting a lot of aid/scholarships, pell grants etc - especially if they are a minority. Now many do live over their heads in college. Those CC companies LOVE college students. The cost of colllege really needs to be looked at. A lot of them are paying for status.

At the end of the day, it’s not the richest 1% that has to pay this bill, it’s the people who are least able to afford it.

How do you figure?

Well, this is easy. "Income tax" is what the government uses as its primary revenue stream in terms of taxes. The top 1% pay virtually ZERO income tax. It all rolls down to those who make just enough to pay federal taxes but aren't wealthy enough to avoid income tax.

What?

Summary of the Latest Federal Income Tax Data, 2023 Update

The latest IRS data shows that the U.S. federal individual income tax continued to be progressive, borne primarily by the highest income earners.

taxfoundation.org

• The top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent.
• The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.8 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.2 percent).

I misspoke...should read "virtually ZERO tax compared to wealth". Had too many thoughts going through my mind at once. Those in the lower tax brackets pay WAY closer to their tax bracket amount than those on the upper side. When a tax bracket is 37% and your effective rate is sub 10% vs your tax bracket being 15% and you paying 5% that's a substantial gap that the bottom has to support.

ETA: Or to be clearer, the higher up the tax brackets one goes, the more loopholes to avoid taxes one gets to enjoy. By the time you're at the 1% they are enjoying significantly more opportunities to keep their money than those lower on the totem poll. When you are running a deficit like we are, all that trickles downhill to those who don't make enough to enjoy the loopholes.

That's probably a better way to state the point I was trying to make.

From the data:

• The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 25.6 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than seven times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (3.5 percent).

 

[Rich Conway]

From the data:

• The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 25.6 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than seven times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (3.5 percent).

I always wonder why people focus so much on income taxes instead of all taxes? Is it just because income taxes are simpler to understand and calculate?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

From the data:

• The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 25.6 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than seven times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (3.5 percent).

How did their payroll taxes compare? Sales taxes? How much of their incomes were they able to shield? Who took best advantage of the "land of opportunity" that exists in this tax environment?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I always wonder why people focus so much on income taxes instead of all taxes? Is it just because income taxes are simpler to understand and calculate?

You of all people have read this before but we have spent most of the past forty plus years paying for tax cuts for the rich by over taxing the working class via payroll tax surpluses* and more and more usage fees. Now if this is really being paid for by surpluses in the program then how dare we not dedicate this to income tax cuts for the 1 percenters!

*And by surpluses with Medicare and Social Security I don't mean how it is supposed to work in theory, just how it worked in practice. I mean now that those surpluses have disappeared for a while as baby boomers retire we haven't exactly raised income taxes to pay back on those bonds held as IOUs but just shifted it to debt to blame someplace other than its source.

 

[Caveman33]

The partisan political gift that keeps giving. Not only loan forgiveness, but student borrowers also get tax breaks totaling an additional $34 billion. Paid for by...other taxpayer suckers.

President Biden’s student-loan write-off is the gift that keeps on giving, unless you’re the sap who paid off her loan or didn’t go to college. Thanks to a little-known provision in the March 2021 Covid spending bill, student borrowers will get a hefty tax benefit on top of their $10,000 or $20,000 in canceled debt.

Progressives started hounding Mr. Biden on loan forgiveness while he was still on the campaign trail, and they tucked a perk into last year’s $1.9 trillion American Rescue Plan in anticipation. The provision, sponsored by Sens. Elizabeth Warren and Bob Menendez, makes loan forgiveness tax free through Jan. 1, 2026.

This contradicts the normal state and federal tax principle that treats loan forgiveness as taxable income. If a borrower earns income of $60,000, and has $10,000 in loans forgiven, his taxable income for the year becomes $70,000.

Not anymore on federal taxes for student borrowers. According to the Senators, under their tax-free plan an average borrower earning $50,000 in income will save about $2,200 in taxes for every $10,000 of forgiven student loans.

The borrowers get a double bonus, while taxpayers assume another burden in the interest that must be paid on the additional government debt now and higher taxes later. Only some 13 states chose not to follow automatically the new tax-free forgiveness policy in the 2021 bill.

In 2021 Congress’s Joint Committee on Taxation scored the Warren-Menendez provision at a cost of $44 million, since at the time few borrowers were expected to receive forgiveness. But given the sweeping nature of the Biden loan cancellation, the left-leaning Tax Policy Center now estimates the cost could be roughly $34 billion.

There will be no comparable tax reprieve for Americans who take out other loans and struggle to repay, or Americans who were frugal and didn’t take out college loans.

Source: WSJ

Sounds good. Last year, the school I attended also gave me two checks totaling around $1,500. It was part of a relief program which I assume was in the rescue plan. I took out $9,500 in loans even though the school was free for me. They later gave me checks for an additional $1,500 to aid in repaying the loans. I never made any payments and now it is all forgiven. One of the better financial decisions I've made recently.

 

[djmich]

From the data:

• The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 25.6 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than seven times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (3.5 percent).

I always wonder why people focus so much on income taxes instead of all taxes? Is it just because income taxes are simpler to understand and calculate?

I agree. Yes for sure its easier to calc but I think a lot of it is just its the largest part of the pie so that's what is referenced.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I agree. Yes for sure its easier to calc but I think a lot of it is just its the largest part of the pie so that's what is referenced.

It is referenced because it is the exception that is not completely regressive.

 

[djmich]

From the data:

• The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 25.6 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than seven times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (3.5 percent).

How did their payroll taxes compare? Sales taxes? How much of their incomes were they able to shield? Who took best advantage of the "land of opportunity" that exists in this tax environment?

Great question, do you have data in a table format similar to that one with payroll taxes, sales tax, property tax, etc?

 

[djmich]

I agree. Yes for sure its easier to calc but I think a lot of it is just its the largest part of the pie so that's what is referenced.

It is referenced because it is the exception that is not completely regressive.

Well an analysis of income tax should only include income tax. It's sort of odd to question why it only includes income tax...

Not that I don't agree that income taxes are progressive, they are very progressive...that just seems to fly in the face of what Commish was indicating.

To my post above, I would be interested in something that was more of an all-in tax effect including local taxes. No doubt those will generally be less progressive.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

From the data:

• The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 25.6 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than seven times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (3.5 percent).

How did their payroll taxes compare? Sales taxes? How much of their incomes were they able to shield? Who took best advantage of the "land of opportunity" that exists in this tax environment?

Great question, do you have data in a table format similar to that one with payroll taxes, sales tax, property tax, etc?

Not recent. Edit: And still only Federal.

https://files.taxfoundation.org/20190312104822/PaF-Chart-8-2.png