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The Russia Ukraine Conflict Thread (1 Viewer)

No....I explained my position.  Acknowledge it or don't...doesn't matter to me.  That you keep trying to frame it this way after clarification is just trolling :shrug:  
Not trolling.  Disagreeing.  You disagree with me and yet I am not calling you a troll.  People don't always agree....accept it.  Grow up.

 
Again.....Maybe I wasn't very clear on this so I will say it again. I think whatever Trump did has ZERO effect.   To repeat, if you really believe Europe would have just stood by while Putin tried to run over Ukraine because they were mad at Trump is really misguided.   Seriously.   That's Trump Derangement Syndrome at it's finest
IMO this is a really really bad take. Your use of the word “Europe” is really misplaced; in the context you’re discussing there is no “Europe”. There are instead leaders of individual countries, with individual interests, guys who are prideful, stubborn, and some of them stupid. They rarely act collectively and many times they don’t even act in their own self interests (see Brexit). They often screw up. Herding them together is like herding cats together, yet Biden did it. 
 

To understand how European leaders, even well intentioned, can screw things up and turn a solvable situation into a total disaster, I highly recommend The Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman. 

 
Not trolling.  Disagreeing.  You disagree with me and yet I am not calling you a troll.  People don't always agree....accept it.  Grow up.
There's really no sense in debating it. Just accept that everything that happens from now on would have been so much worse if Trump was in office. You'll never convince them otherwise.

 
In my praise of Biden I was pretty specific: he convinced Germany to threaten to include the pipeline in the economic sanctions. 
 

This is a big deal. It is not necessarily in Germany’s best interests to make this threat because if they are forced to go through with it their economy will be severely hurt. In point of fact both the USA and the rest of Europe were asking Germany to suffer the real brunt of any economic sanctions. They were reluctant to agree until Biden stepped in personally. That is why @supermike80is wrong, Europe would not have done this “on their own”, that is why, IF Putin backs down, Biden deserves a lot of the credit. 

 
Not trolling.  Disagreeing.  You disagree with me and yet I am not calling you a troll.  People don't always agree....accept it.  Grow up.
No...the trolling part is you continuing to twist peoples' words to fit your simplistic and inaccurate narrative of what they've said after they've clarified.  I have no problem with disagreement.  What you're doing isn't disagreement.  You should heed your own advice.

 
No...the trolling part is you continuing to twist peoples' words to fit your simplistic and inaccurate narrative of what they've said after they've clarified.  I have no problem with disagreement.  What you're doing isn't disagreement.  You should heed your own advice.
Nah..That's not trolling.   You should research that better

 
There's really no sense in debating it. Just accept that everything that happens from now on would have been so much worse if Trump was in office. You'll never convince them otherwise.
Save this nonsense for someone else.  I never mentioned Trump until responding to mike's nonsense.  I simply pointed out how all the NATO countries were now on the same page regarding the current situation.  We haven't seen that since 9/11.  That requires all the leaders of these countries to be communicating and agreeing....including our President.

 
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Save this nonsense for someone else.  I never mentioned Trump until responding to mike's nonsense.  I simply pointed out how all the NATO countries were now on the same page regarding the current situation.  We haven't seen that since 9/11.  That requires all the leaders of these countries to be communicating and agreeing....including our President.
I challenge you to come up with ONE country that would have had a different position about the Ukraine situation because of Trump.

You can't..Because it's a ridiculous premise.  

 
In my praise of Biden I was pretty specific: he convinced Germany to threaten to include the pipeline in the economic sanctions. 
 

This is a big deal. It is not necessarily in Germany’s best interests to make this threat because if they are forced to go through with it their economy will be severely hurt. In point of fact both the USA and the rest of Europe were asking Germany to suffer the real brunt of any economic sanctions. They were reluctant to agree until Biden stepped in personally. That is why @supermike80is wrong, Europe would not have done this “on their own”, that is why, IF Putin backs down, Biden deserves a lot of the credit. 
I believe what you are saying here, but I haven't seen where the German leader indicated he would directly cancel the pipeline. i see a lot of vague talk about being united with European allies, but I guess I am using the google search function wrong to find him making that claim. I see Biden said he would cancel the pipeline, which is frankly ridiculous because he has zero say on the issue. 

And I am not sure even if the threat to cancel the pipeline would deter the Russians anyway LInk

 
I believe what you are saying here, but I haven't seen where the German leader indicated he would directly cancel the pipeline. i see a lot of vague talk about being united with European allies, but I guess I am using the google search function wrong to find him making that claim. I see Biden said he would cancel the pipeline, which is frankly ridiculous because he has zero say on the issue. 

And I am not sure even if the threat to cancel the pipeline would deter the Russians anyway LInk
Not only that but we are operating on the assumption that this is a done deal..which it ain't

 
British Prime Minister Boris Johnson said Russia was sending “mixed signals.”

“We are seeing Russian openness to conversations,” Johnson said after a meeting of his government’s COBRA crisis committee. “On the other hand, the intelligence we are seeing today is still not encouraging.”

He said Russia continued to build field hospitals in Belarus near the Ukrainian border, which “can only be construed as preparation for an invasion.”

 
Not looking great again at the moment.  Russia using similar tactics and saying similar things as when they went into Georgia.  Little skirmishes to claim Ukraine is provoking them.

 
Not looking great again at the moment.  Russia using similar tactics and saying similar things as when they went into Georgia.  Little skirmishes to claim Ukraine is provoking them.
Yeah it’s not good. Biden says “every indication” Russia is about to attack. Also Russia just expelled our #2 person in our embassy in Moscow. No explanation given yet. 

 
timschochet said:
Yeah it’s not good. Biden says “every indication” Russia is about to attack. Also Russia just expelled our #2 person in our embassy in Moscow. No explanation given yet. 
OK, but moments after Biden said that, he said this.  Hard to know what's real.  

 
So a big get that Russia wants out of this is Ukraine will never be allowed in NATO. 

Just lie to him. Why is this an issue?

 
Well how about we start with this: all this talk about Biden being senile, lost his wits, being controlled by those around him- none of that is real. It’s a conservative fantasy. 
Didn't he just tell a story about killing Corn Pop's dog and leaving it on his porch. I may have mixed up some details.

 
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I'm still not sure what Putin / Russia is gaining by attacking Ukraine .. is it really just about getting back what Russia/Putin considers more of a territory to control than a sovereign nation?

is the cost worth that? Russia would never be able to hold it , the cost is huge .....

 
I'm still not sure what Putin / Russia is gaining by attacking Ukraine .. is it really just about getting back what Russia/Putin considers more of a territory to control than a sovereign nation?

is the cost worth that? Russia would never be able to hold it , the cost is huge .....
I've wondered the same.  My amateur guess is he wants to carve that section to the east out of the Russian speaking people like he did in Crimea.  I'm not sure he wants a full scale long term occupation.  That's a fools errand in today's world, he just needs to look back at our recent history.

 
I've wondered the same.  My amateur guess is he wants to carve that section to the east out of the Russian speaking people like he did in Crimea.  I'm not sure he wants a full scale long term occupation.  That's a fools errand in today's world, he just needs to look back at our recent history.
Excerpts from last week's WSJ:

In massing troops near Ukraine, Mr. Putin’s goal is to extract concessions from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and force him to give Russia a say in Ukraine’s future. That would send a message to other former Soviet states that the West can’t guarantee their security. To ratchet up the pressure, Mr. Putin has an array of military options short of a full occupation, from low-profile incursions to a limited conflict in the eastern Donbas region, where Russian-backed separatists have declared themselves independent of Ukraine but aren’t recognized by the government in Kyiv.

Mr. Putin has been clear about wishing to reassert Russia’s influence over its neighbors, particularly Ukraine. In 2014, he annexed Ukraine’s Crimean peninsula, fomenting an eight-year war in the country’s east. 

So far, Mr. Putin has left Western leaders guessing about whether he would stage a major invasion of Ukraine and provoke a possible breakdown in ties with the West, or whether he would be satisfied with wringing a few concessions from an expansive list of demands he has put forth. These include that NATO guarantees that it won’t give membership to Ukraine.

Moscow has also demanded that NATO curb military exercises in Ukraine and other former Soviet nations, and that the alliance pull its forces back from its eastern member states. NATO deployed about 5,000 troops to Poland and the Baltic countries after Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014.

 
Well how about we start with this: all this talk about Biden being senile, lost his wits, being controlled by those around him- none of that is real. It’s a conservative fantasy. 


Some of it is real ,not all of it.   Biden has lost a step there is no denying that.  How much is debatable. I get it, he is 80.

 
I've wondered the same.  My amateur guess is he wants to carve that section to the east out of the Russian speaking people like he did in Crimea.  I'm not sure he wants a full scale long term occupation.  That's a fools errand in today's world, he just needs to look back at our recent history.


smoke and mirrors? Putin/Russia has something doing elsewhere and this is a distraction ?   Drive up oil prices?  Undermine any credibility Biden has by showing him up ?

or it could be as it appears - taking over Ukraine 

 
Take over to control these guys?  Money and/or power, what else is there? 

Although, I do believe Putin is the ultimate troll so I'm leaning that he's just f'n with the World and laughing at the reactions.  Look at the economic damage and fear it's already causing.  Throw sanctions at Russia and countries like Germany that get their energy from Russia will be paying for it too.  

 
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Excerpts from last week's WSJ:

In massing troops near Ukraine, Mr. Putin’s goal is to extract concessions from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and force him to give Russia a say in Ukraine’s future. That would send a message to other former Soviet states that the West can’t guarantee their security. To ratchet up the pressure, Mr. Putin has an array of military options short of a full occupation, from low-profile incursions to a limited conflict in the eastern Donbas region, where Russian-backed separatists have declared themselves independent of Ukraine but aren’t recognized by the government in Kyiv.

Mr. Putin has been clear about wishing to reassert Russia’s influence over its neighbors, particularly Ukraine. In 2014, he annexed Ukraine’s Crimean peninsula, fomenting an eight-year war in the country’s east. 

So far, Mr. Putin has left Western leaders guessing about whether he would stage a major invasion of Ukraine and provoke a possible breakdown in ties with the West, or whether he would be satisfied with wringing a few concessions from an expansive list of demands he has put forth. These include that NATO guarantees that it won’t give membership to Ukraine.

Moscow has also demanded that NATO curb military exercises in Ukraine and other former Soviet nations, and that the alliance pull its forces back from its eastern member states. NATO deployed about 5,000 troops to Poland and the Baltic countries after Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014.
Thank God we have a non-dictatorship in the US and can lean on others for advice , council etc.   Cause if this was a war between Putin's political savvy and Biden's mono-Y-mono, we would be in big trouble.

 
President Biden says he’s convinced that Russia will invade. 
 
Definitely not looking good now. But I do think that he only invades and holds the Donbas region (plus a buffer). And everyone will watch him do it and not lift a finger.

 
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Definitely not looking good now. But I do think that he only invades and holds the Donbas region. And everyone will watch him do it and not lift a finger.
He’s not just going to walk in. It’s going to be bloody. And Germany will shut off the pipeline I believe. 

 
He’s not just going to walk in. It’s going to be bloody. And Germany will shut off the pipeline I believe. 
When I say not lift a finger, I mean militarily. There will be sanctions obviously. I don't know that it will be all that bloody, but there will be some fighting. The rebels already control most that area.

 
When I say not lift a finger, I mean militarily. There will be sanctions obviously. I don't know that it will be all that bloody, but there will be some fighting. The rebels already control most that area.
Well keep in mind tims predictions are wrong over 80% of the time

 
Wtf are we doing even insinuating that we’d go to war with Russia over Ukraine.  You only go to war when it is in your vital national interest.  Can someone tell me how Ukraine is in our vital national interest?  Thanks.

 
And what does this have to do with Trump?  Can we stop wasting another precious breath talking about that buffoon?

 
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A whole lot of innocent people may be about to die, and you’re ripping me on my predictions? Classy. 
Gawd......

Yes...Because I accurately pointed out that you are wrong almost all the time on your predictions, that means I don't care about people dying.  Good stuff

 
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Wtf are we doing even insinuating that we’d go to war with Russia over Ukraine.  You only go to war when it is in your vital national interest.  Can someone tell me how Ukraine is in our vital national interest?  Thanks.
This doesn't seem to be our government's standard.  Two examples that come to mind immediately are Kuwait and Afghanistan.  I'll be generous and give Iraq a pass even though I personally rejected it as the right choice.  

 
I’m old enough to remember the talking point in here of how that last POTUS was going to get us into a stupid unnecessary war…..yet here we are with their guy.   :doh:

 
Wtf are we doing even insinuating that we’d go to war with Russia over Ukraine.  You only go to war when it is in your vital national interest.  Can someone tell me how Ukraine is in our vital national interest?  Thanks.
Who are you arguing against? Is there one person, in this thread or in the news or anywhere who has suggested we should go to war with Russia? I can’t think of anybody. 

 

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